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  #1  
Old 09-03-2005, 05:36 PM
KPBAP KPBAP is offline
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In recent days I had a friend ask me when and where Baptists decided to state that it is sinful to drink and to dance? Was this "tradition" created from the prohibition days of the early 20th century? Any biblical support???
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Old 09-03-2005, 05:39 PM
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El_Guero El_Guero is offline
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I just had a "Bible church" person tell me that we were the same as them until I mentioned drinking and dancing ...

such is life: I understand that it mostly came from the "wild west" days of early Texas life ... the feel I always got growing up was, "You can't dance without going to a dance hall. And you can't go to a dance hall without there being alcohol, sin, and probably a shooting or two."
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Old 09-03-2005, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by KPBAP:
In recent days I had a friend ask me when and where Baptists decided to state that it is sinful to drink and to dance? Was this "tradition" created from the prohibition days of the early 20th century? Any biblical support???
I don't know when this was started.
Not all Baptists believe drinking in moderation is sinful, I don't. And saying dancing is sinful is beyond ridiculous. [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] I don't see any biblical support yet and I've looked at all the verses people use to say it's sinful.
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Old 09-03-2005, 09:38 PM
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KP,

traditionally Baptists have tried to hold to high standards of separation and abstaining from all appearance of evil. (In more recent years a more liberal attitude has started to creep in, in some places.)

The Bible DOES say to avoid strong drink, to not be controlled by anything but the Holy Spirit, and to not be caught up in things that would distract, or that could cause you to lose your Christian testimony.

Dancing these days, you must admit, is most often NOT a waltz or tapdancing. It is something far more sensual, and not something which a Christian ought to engage in UNLESS it is alone in your living room with your spouse.
Going to a dancing hall (bar, club, etc) comes with an assumption (by the world) that alcohol is present and most likely a part of your activity....so it presents a serious compromise of any testimony you might have to those watching you....and believe me, there ARE people watching you whether they ever confront you over it or not.
In the very least they will look at these actions and say in their mind, "Hes a Christian and he does the same things I do....so what's the big deal about being a Christian?"

While I don't hold to "Lifestyle Evangelism", I DO hold to having a good testimony behind your witnessing to others.

This is why we typically hold to no drinking and no dancing. Now, if a person is still fighting hard for their "right" to drink and dance than I believe they have been saved and are standing on the brink looking back at what they were saved from, wishfully wanting to be a part of all that still.

Far better it would be if they would turn their back completely from all that and throw themselves into the abundant life that God wants to give them over here, one of being busy doing God's will.

Im not perfect, by any means, don't get me wrong....but our family is so busy trying to help in our church and keep doing what we know is right, that we most certainly don't miss any kind of drinking or dancing activities that we might have been involved in otherwise.

Get busy doing what God wants, and these other issues just sort of fall by the wayside.
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  #5  
Old 09-03-2005, 09:40 PM
Joman Joman is offline
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This is a great sermon about drinking alcohol..

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninf...nID=8405104120
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Old 09-03-2005, 09:44 PM
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Hey Joman,

I know that pastor's brother, MIKE Monte!

What a small world! They are good men!
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Old 09-04-2005, 04:32 PM
Brother Ian Brother Ian is offline
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I think there are only two places in Scripture that recommend drinking. One is in the Psalms I think where the writer instructs wine be given to a dying man to ease his pain. The other is Paul's instruction to Timothy to take a little wine for thy stomach's sake. It is widely believed that Timothy had a gastrointestinal problem such as dsysentary (sp?).

Drinking to get drunk is always condemned in Scripture.

Paul said that while all things were lawful for him, not all things were expedient. When this subject comes up in Sunday School, I ask my class (young married couples) what they would think of me if they saw me drinking. In every case they tell me they would be horrified. Why? Because I have a testimony that would cause others to stumble if they saw me doing somthing they thought to be wrong. I am certainly not perfect, but there are some things that it is better to stay way on the conservative side of an issue.

I sure would to cause someone to stumble based on what they saw in me.
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Old 09-04-2005, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
I think there are only two places in Scripture that recommend drinking. One is in the Psalms I think where the writer instructs wine be given to a dying man to ease his pain. The other is Paul's instruction to Timothy to take a little wine for thy stomach's sake. It is widely believed that Timothy had a gastrointestinal problem such as dsysentary (sp?).
So what do you do with verses like Luke 5:37-39 that tells us that the "old" wine is better than the "new" wine (older is more alcoholic)? Or where wine and other strong drink is encouraged to be bought AND DRANK in the presence of the Lord (Deut. 14;26)? Or in Numbers 6:3 where it gives a clear difference between wine and grape juice? Or Isaiah 25:6 where the Lord Himself will prepare us a feast with the best wine? Or Luke 7:33-35 where Jesus Himself showed the difference between His and John the Baptist's style of ministry where John abstained from wine and was called a lunatic, and where Jesus didn't abstain and was called a drunk? Nowhere in scripture is alcohol in itself called sinful, only drunkeness
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Old 09-04-2005, 06:04 PM
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KPBAP asked:

"Was this 'tradition' created from the prohibition days of the early 20th century?"

A bit earlier, but yes.

When Baptists were moving west and south in the early 19th century, it was common (and an economic necessity) to convert grain into alcohol.

Baptists, like Methodists and other Protestant groups, began to sign on to the temperance movement after the Civil War. By 1887, the SBC Temperance Committee could proclaim:

"RESOLVED, That as representatives of the great Baptist brotherhood of the South in convention assembled, we do solemnly protest against the manufacture and sale of ardent spirits as a beverage, and will use our influence in every proper and legitimate way for its suppression and prohibition.

RESOLVED, That, disclaiming all intention of giving to this report any political signification, we express our sympathy with friends of prohibition in the States of Tennessee and Texas in their present efforts to overthrow this evil in their respective commonwealths, and with our prayers, influence and efforts will do all we can to give them success.

That was followed in 1890 by an SBC resolution:

"RESOLVED, By the Southern Baptist Convention assembled, that we are unalterably opposed to the sale of intoxicating liquor, as a beverage, either under high or low license."

By 1896, the SBC was on record as favoring disfellowship of church members who drank or sold liquor:

"RESOLVED, That we, the members of the Southern Baptist Convention, reassert our truceless and uncompromising hostility to the manufacture, sale, importation and transportation, of alcoholic beverages in any and all their forms. We regard the policy of issuing government licenses for the purpose of carrying on the liquor traffic as a sin against God and a dishonor to our people. We furthermore announce it as our conviction that we should by all legitimate means oppose the liquor traffic in municipality, county, State, and nation.

Furthermore, we announce it as the sense of this body that no person should be retained in the fellowship of a Baptist church who engages in the manufacture or sale of alcoholic liquors, either at wholesale or retail, who invests his money in the manufacture or sale of alcoholic liquors, or who rents his property to be used for distilleries, wholesale liquor houses, or saloons. Nor do we believe that any church should retain in its fellowship any member who drinks intoxicating liquors as a beverage, or visits saloons or drinking places for the purpose of such indulgence."

There were voices of dissent. In The Tennessee Encyclopedia of History and Culture, W. Calvin Dickinson of Tennessee Technological University recounts the following story:

"In February 1887 the Tennessee Temperance Alliance held a convention in Nashville to organize county committees statewide to generate public support for the amendment when presented to the voters for the final referendum. Methodist, Baptist, and Presbyterian churches participated in the campaign. In Morgan County, for example, Reverend A. B. Wright, a circuit rider in the Upper Cumberland region, served as chairman. For two weeks, he made speeches in favor of the prohibition amendment to groups assembled in schoolhouses and churches. When he arrived at an engagement scheduled at the Baptist Church in Sunbright, he discovered the preacher and his father had 'locked us out,' and he was forced to speak at a nearby building."
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Old 09-04-2005, 06:22 PM
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John Gill (1697-1771) — as Puritan as any Baptist could be — provided this on the use of alcoholic beverages:

Quote:
Ephesians 5:18:

And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess…

The sin of drunkenness here dehorted from, is a custom, or habit, of voluntary excessive drinking of any strong liquor, whereby the mind is disturbed, and deprived of the use of reason: though wine is only here mentioned, that being the usual liquor drank in the eastern countries, yet the same holds good of any other strong liquor, as of that; nor is drinking wine for necessary use prohibited, nor for honest delight and lawful pleasure; but excessive drinking of it, and this voluntary, and with design, and on purpose; otherwise persons may be overtaken and intoxicated, through ignorance of the strength of the liquor, and their own weakness; and it is a custom, or habit of excessive drinking, for not a single act, but a series of actions, a course of living in this sin, denominates a man a drunkard; and generally speaking, excessive drinking deprives persons of the use of reason, though not always; and such are criminal, who are mighty to drink wine, and strong to mingle strong drink; as are also such, who though not guilty of this sin themselves, are the means of it in others: the sin is very sinful; it is one of the works of the flesh; it is an abuse of the creature; it is opposed to walking honestly; for it persons are to be excluded from the communion of the church; and, without the grace of true repentance, shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven: many things might be said to dissuade from it; it hurts the mind, memory, and judgment; deprives of reason, and sets a man below a beast; it brings diseases on the body, and wastes the estate; it unfits for business and duty; it opens a door for every sin, and exposes to shame and danger; and therefore should be carefully avoided, and especially by professors of religion:
Emphasis added
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