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Carrying the Fire

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Mar 27, 2024.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Recently I read the wonderful book about flying in space as part of the Apollo program. The author, mentioned a poem, "High Flight" by a WWII Spitfire pilot, flying for the RAF. The RAF motto is Latin for "Out of Adversity to the Stars."

    As we try our best to stand firm for Christ, in these times of adversity, remember we are carrying the fire, the light of the world, to the lost in the domain of darkness.

    Everyone chosen for salvation by God possessed his or her faith firmly rooted in their heart, such that we all are committed to standing firm in the face of adversity. Those not firmly rooted are described in Matthew 13:21, Mark 4:17 and Luke 8:13. OTOH, those firmly rooted are described in 1 Corinthians 7:37, 2 Corinthians 1:24, and Ephesians 6:14.

    There are two very different views of being "baptized with fire" (Matthew 3:11). One view is that Jesus will judge the lost and consign them to the Lake of Fire. The other view is that believers will be indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and the Helper's godly influence should not be extinguished as a lamp fire. See 1 Thessalonians 5:19.

    Clearly we are not to hide our light, but are to "let is shine" that way our sacrifice, the way we live our lives for Christ, will be salted with salt, Mark 9:49
     
    #1 Van, Mar 27, 2024
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    To be “baptized by fire” refers to persecution for the faith which is a constant theme in the teachings of our Lord.

    peace to you
     
    #2 canadyjd, Mar 27, 2024
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    As 'The Prophet' Christ came only to Israel in their last days of the Sinai Covenant. Scrutinize the context of this passage and understand that being 'baptized with fire' by God was a very bad thing to happen to one, and that it was disobedient Jews that didn't belong to Him that were in mind here. This 'baptism of fire', 'wrath to come', occurred during the Jews civil war and Roman invasion of 66-70 AD in which 2/3 of Palestinian Jews perished or were sold into slavery:

    7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
    8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
    9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    10 And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:
    12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire. Mt 3

    Totally synonymous with:

    49 I came to cast fire upon the earth [the land]; and what do I desire, if it is already kindled?
    50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
    51 Think ye that I am come to give peace in the earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
    52 for there shall be from henceforth five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
    53 They shall be divided, father against son, and son against father; mother against daughter, and daughter against her mother; mother in law against her daughter in law, and daughter in law against her mother in law. Lu 12

    Read the eyewitness account of this civil war given by Josephus-'Wars Of The Jews', and understand the real meaning of these words.

    It was a horrific event.
     
    #3 kyredneck, Mar 27, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2024
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 3:11-12, . . . he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

    Mark 9:48, . . . Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. . . .

    I understand that baptism is for the lost.
     
    #4 37818, Mar 27, 2024
  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    In the context of Matthew 3, John says Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit (salvation) and with fire (the persecution that follows being a believer in Jesus.)

    peace to you
     
    #5 canadyjd, Mar 27, 2024
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  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps you are correct and I have misunderstood the passage. I will have to ponder on it a while.

    peace to you
     
    #6 canadyjd, Mar 27, 2024
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  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well, that is how you are taking it. The "you" is plural and in fact includes both the saved and lost. And that has been my understanding for over 50 years.
     
    #7 37818, Mar 27, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2024
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  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    No. Jesus did not/does not persecute His people for believing.

    Chaff, not wheat, was burned. Jesus doesn't persecute His own.

     
    #8 kyredneck, Mar 28, 2024
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    #9 kyredneck, Mar 28, 2024
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I see plenty of opinions as to what "fire" refers to in Matthew 3:11, but little discussion of the thread topic.

    1) First Matthew 3:11 refers to the action of Christ, not the action of human persecutors. Note "He will baptize you."

    2) Should the verse be translated as with fire or by fire? The Greek proposition is "en" (locatively meaning to be within something), thus the action is to be immersed into the "Holy Spirit" of God, and in this case (see Romans 6:3) Christ's spiritual body is in view.

    3) And the same Greek preposition (en) applies to "and fire." Assuming the same usage is in view, then "fire" refers to the material or thing in which the person is immersed.

    4) So the first question which the scholars seem to have no common answer is whether Christ is addressing both those to be saved (baptized into Christ) and those to be damned (immersed into the Lake of Fire). Or does the topic change from the preceding verse and in the following verse, revert to the prior topic It is easy to see why many if not most folks think based on the immediate context, that the Lake of Fire is in view.

    5) On the other hand, lets consider the possibility the verse 11 is parenthetical. If this view is taken, then the NET bible footnoted alternate view seems possible.
    "... It is possible that since Holy Spirit and fire are governed by a single preposition in Greek, the one-baptism view may be more likely, but this is not certain. Simply put, there is no consensus view in scholarship at this time on the best interpretation of this passage.​

    6) Adopting the "one baptism view" then we are not only immersed into the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is immersed into us,(we are indwelt - sealed in Christ) and the fire refers to the influence of the Spirit we are not to extinguish.

    7) As we try our best to stand firm for Christ, in these times of adversity, remember we are carrying the fire, the light of the world, to the lost in the domain of darkness.
     
    #10 Van, Mar 29, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2024
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