Deception and OSAS

Can you provide the verse from Matt 18 which states the servant was born of God? Can you provide a verse which states the servant had a changed heart?

Very good! We also do not see any testimony that the goats once had faith in Jesus Christ. Aren't you the one who is always pointing out those "inconvienent details"? I guess just when they seem to side with you.

Could be argued? The passage is perfectly clear, "I NEVER KNEW YOU". And the verse says nothing about "right words". These are false prophets abusing the name of Jesus.

Anytime you get pressed to prove what you say you like to jump to other passages. I have addressed three of your passages and I am still waiting for your proof verses of faith and a changed life.

Why do I need a solution when you have yet to show from Matt 18 the servant had faith in Christ, having a changed heart? You made the claim the servant was saved. I am waiting for you to provide the verse. What verse says the man went away with a changed heart? You yourself said "mental ascent to the facts" do not save.

Actually, the only verse that shows the servants heart is the one that states he took another man by the throat. There is no testimony that the man ever had a changed heart(born again).

Agreed. But we are not debating that which we agree upon. You keep Matt 7 in your bag of anti-osas but you should know the passage is clear that these "never knew Jesus". But time will pass by and you will post it once again come a future debate.

:jesus:

 

I mentioned the "I never knew you" scenario for Matt 7 and showed how it is used as one of many examples of being lost.

I also stated that it is not in Matt 25 (or Matt 18, or Ezek 18, or Gal 5:4 or Romans 11, or John 15:1-6 etc).

But if you have found it in one of those places please quote it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I have repeatedly stated that Matt 7 is the only one dealing with the "I never knew you case" of the lost.

If you can find it on the other cases of the lost that we see in Matt 18, Ezek 18, John 15:1-8, Romans 11, Gal 5:4 please show it.

Yes all of that comes with forgiveness as we are shown in Acts 2.

Do you know some "other way" to get all of your sins forgiven other than the Gospel??

If so - please provide the scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Bob;

In Matt 25 we do not see the "I never knew you case" limiting the various forms of being lost.

Good one.

Actually the "inconvenient detail" you are missing in Matt 25 is that it is not limited to any specific form of being lost. So we can not rule out the Matt 18 form of "Forgiveness revoked" as one of the cases of the lost it can address, or the John 15:1-11 form of being "taken out of the vine of Christ" or the Gal 5:4 form of lost that is "severed from Christ, fallen from Grace".

Since Matt 25 does nothing to limit the kinds of lost scenarios mentioned in scripture - we don't need to eisegetically "insert that limitation".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Actually another "inconvenient detail" here is that I have been pointing to the Matt 18, Ezek 18, Gal 5:4, Romans 11, John 15:1-11 examples pretty much since the start of my posting on this thread. But I can see why you might be reluctant to deal with them.

The second point (already addressed in my previous post) is that the Bible only knows of "one Gospel" and that is the one that provides forgiveness of sins, a changed heart, and is "by faith alone".

You keep posting as if each part of the Gospel is a completely "different Gospel".

I am not familiar with that body of doctrines. Do you care you share more along those lines?

in Christ,

Bob

 

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Just so I am clear on your pov of God's forgiveness, when Jesus ask Father God to forgive those who were killing Him, God then regenerated their hearts and saved them? I'm sure the Father would do as the Son asked and forgive them seeing how they always agreed as One and since you believe that forgiveness cannot be seperate from regeneration then these killers must have been saved at that moment. Correct? If no, please explain why these were not saved by God's forgiveness and the servant was.

Yet you insert all the time that these were onced saved and then lost. Again, if it agrees with your pov you are all for insertion, when it goes against your pov you dismiss. I am simply asking do not go beyond what is written, which you do quite often.

And if I post a string of passages that declare osas you will give me an exgesis proving to me why each one doesn't mean osas? I could list quite a few more than six or seven.

You seem to accept the fact that the "never" of Matt 7 does indeed mean "never" but do not accept the word "never" when Jesus speaks of those who become His sheep, those who have received the Holy Ghost. And then there is the word "eternal". I could post a string of verses that declare the saved have been given eternal life. Are you willing to go through each one I list and explain why "never" does not always mean never or why "eternal" does not always mean eternal? I doubt it, but if that is what you expect from me then I will prepare a list for you and we will begin.

The gospel has only one part, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and ye shall be saved. You are save by GRACE through faith and this NOT OF YOURSELVES. The "not of yourselves" would negate your pov that one is saved by forgiving another. Forgiving others is an attribute of a changed heart, thus the servant showed that he was not regenerated.

:jesus:

 

Indeed. as John also points out "IF we CONFESS our sins HE IS faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". 1John 1:9

That too is the "ONE Gospel" solution to the sin problem that Paul says in Gal 1:6-11 is the ONLY solution out there.

Too imagine that you have "another Gospel" with each new text or "another avenue of forgiveness" is to fail to take the Bible in full context.


[qutoe=Steaver]


Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Just so I am clear on your pov of God's forgiveness, when Jesus ask Father God to forgive those who were killing Him, God then regenerated their hearts and saved them?
[/quote]

Nope. He provided the "Atoning Sacrifice" 1John 2:1 (NIV) for "OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" at the cross through the substitutionary atoning sacrifice of Christ in our behalf.

His Gospel - atonement model offers forgiveness of sins on the exact basis that 1John 1:9 and that John 3:16 states "that Whosoever believeth on him might not perish but have everlasting life".

There is "wicked sinners fully forgiven but just so happen to be in lake of fire" doctrine in all of scripture (as it turns out).

Those at the cross simply had to accept Christ as their Savior and they too would have forgiveness of sins.

Only one Gospel. Only one solution for getting the blood of Christ applied to your sin debt so that you can be forgiven.

Inventing a new mini-gospel with each Bible text is not good eisegesis.

There is only one Gospel (Gal 1:6-11) and thus only one means for forgiveness of sins (1John 2:1) -- and that offered to all mankind on the 1John 1:9 conditional basis -- as stated in scripture.

Not all will freely accept this -- but it is scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

So it is going to be interesting to see your basis for ignoring them as you have been doing.

In our discussions -- I never argue that you are not allowed to point to texts that you believe are making your case.

On the contrary - exegesis is everything.

My argument does not require it. Eternal life is real - but it can be refused - and it can be lost.

Eternal life is not the same thing as "brain dead".

The person still has the ability to choose -- just as we see forgiveness revoked in Matt 18 and Ezek 18. Just as we see those who are connected by faith to Christ in Romans 11 being told "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you".

Just as we see in Gal 5:4 those who once were connected to Christ "Severed FROM Christ, Fallen FROM grace".

You are making the "illusive" argument that responding to my Matt 18 Ezek 18, Romans 11 text means "ignoring the text" a choosing instead to focus on other texts -- "as if" that is the answer for why you have been ignoring those test-case texts for OSAS.

That is a funny kind of logic for dealing with OSAS test cases.

in Christ,

Bob

 

That didn't come out right so I retract the first six words. The "gospel" has revealed many works God has performed so mankind can be saved. Repent and Faith (turn from unbelief to belief) is the only requirement from mankind to receive this salvation. Since this is the only requirement by mankind for God's Grace then nothing mankind does "of themselves" can cause one to lose that which was freely given, ("not of yourselves") , in the first place. That would be another gospel. Either the gospel is by grace through faith and that not of yourselves OR it is no grace and keep working on it. You can't have it both ways. Grace either stands alone or it is not grace.

:wavey:

 

Nope. He provided the "Atoning Sacrifice" 1John 2:1 (NIV) for "OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" at the cross through the substitutionary atoning sacrifice of Christ in our behalf.

His Gospel - atonement model offers forgiveness of sins on the exact basis that 1John 1:9 and that John 3:16 states "that Whosoever believeth on him might not perish but have everlasting life".

There is "wicked sinners fully forgiven but just so happen to be in lake of fire" doctrine in all of scripture (as it turns out).

Those at the cross simply had to accept Christ as their Savior and they too would have forgiveness of sins.

Only one Gospel. Only one solution for getting the blood of Christ applied to your sin debt so that you can be forgiven.

Inventing a new mini-gospel with each Bible text is not good eisegesis.

There is only one Gospel (Gal 1:6-11) and thus only one means for forgiveness of sins (1John 2:1) -- and that offered to all mankind on the 1John 1:9 conditional basis -- as stated in scripture.

Not all will freely accept this -- but it is scripture.

in Christ,

Bob[/quote]

Could you reitterate what I emboldened please?

 

So in one passage you say "nope" but in another passage you say "yep". Nowhere in Matt 18 does the text ever say the servant repented, had faith, was regenerated or showed a changed heart. The servant was forgiven just like the killers at the cross were forgiven. For Matt 18 you insert that the man forgiven was saved, but in Luke 23 the men forgiven were not.

So even though Jesus said forgive them, the Father said not until they accept you as Saviour.

Actually, it is eisegesis. It is not good exegesis.

I am assuming you meant "there is no....wicked sinners....

When you say "fully forgiven" this must include repentence towards God and faith in Jesus Christ. The servant was forgiven of his debt, his lack of repentence/faith was not. He was not "fully forgiven".

The parable shows Christ's atoning sacrifice for the sin of man, debt is paid for and forgiven by the blood of Christ, God forgives sin. The servant shows the rejection of that sacrifice, how mankind troddens under foot the blood of Christ, the forgiveness of sin, even having heard the gospel, even feeling the conviction of the Holy Ghost, yet they reject the atonement and are lost, not because of their past sin, but because they rejected Jesus Christ as Saviour.

It is a parable. I am surprised someone such as yourself would rest your case on the eisegesis of a parable. Exegesis shows that the servant did not have a changed heart, a requirement for having been "born again".

:thumbsup:

 

Just "ONe Gospel" - just ONE way to get forgiven 1John 1:9.

Not a "new Gospel with every text you read" -- as it turns out.

As it turns out - that entire list is not stamped into scripture in Romans 10, or Acts 2, or Acts 10 or anywhere you see a conversion event. "IF" we were to simply "invent a new gospel" each time we came across a text with one of the benefits of the Gospel - but not all the list - I suppose we could have a "zillion gospels" by now - not just "one.

nice try though.

As for Matt 18 being somemthing for us to ignore - Christ said after the parable was ended "SO shall My Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive others".

The OSAS idea gets snuffed at that point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Bob consider these things:

Bob, Your concept of forgiveness is so confused. You take many verses about forgiveness and string them together without regard to context. First ask yourself these questions when considering a verse on forgiveness:

1.Was the forgiveness directed to God?
2.Was the forgiveness directed toward man?
3.Was the forgiveness being asked for by a Christian?
4.Was the forgiveness being asked for by an unsaved person?

Each of these makes a difference. They provide a different context. You ignore these contexts. Plus you ignore the context of a parable, where doctrine cannot be determined but only illustrated. This is another flaw in your presentation.

What does 1John 2:1 say:
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
--Note: It is written by a Christian (John) to Christians. The subject is the Christian’s walk with God, not salvation. Concerning salvation this Scripture is out. John is not speaking of salvation.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
--John includes himself in this verse. Just a couple verses earlier in verse 7 he says “if we walk in the light we have fellowship.” He is speaking of our fellowship with God, not salvation. This verse is out. It is not speaking of salvation.

John 3:16, which we all have memorized is the only verse so far that does speak of salvation, and it mention those key words that we speak about.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
--Words have meanings. To not perish means to not perish.
Everlasting means eternal, without end. This verse goes against you very belief.

All men are fully forgiven in a sense, but not all men have accepted Christ’s forgiveness. If a sinner does not accept the forgiveness it does him no good. That is the meaning of John 3:16. “Whosoever believes on him…” The forgiveness is there, yes.” But they must believe in order to avail themselves of that forgiveness. The forgiveness is there. It must be accepted. It is a gift.

True

But you have put forth more than one gospel. You mix it with works.

Galatians 1 speaks of the only one gospel. Any other gospel is to be rejected and the one presenting it is accursed.
I John 2:1 is not presenting a gospel. If you say it is then according to Gal.1 you are accursed. You are presenting another gospel. 1John 2:1 is John teaching “my little children” about sanctification, not salvation. It is not a gospel message.

And I am one of them. For not all Scripture speaks of salvation.

Consider two examples of Scripture that well demonstrate forgiveness.
Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
--Stephen, (like our Lord) asked forgiveness for those who stoned them. But his prayer was directed toward God, not man. In his heart he could pray to God and harbor no bitterness against these men who were committing this crime against him. But Stephen knew: Only God can forgive sins. His prayer was directed toward God.

Another but very different example.
Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
--Sometimes we are sinned against by another person.
There is no forgiveness without repentance. If you steal from me, there is no sense in me saying “I forgive you,” unless you restore that which you have stolen, or have truly repented of your sin. How can I forgive you unless you repent of what you have I done. I cannot.
This was exemplified in the life of John the Baptist. He would not baptized them unless they showed fruits of repentance first. They had to demonstrate repentance before they could be baptized.

There will be many forgiven people in Hell. They will be forgiven as a person can pray to God for forgiveness, but in reality they cannot forgive the person until the person repents. The offended person can only pray to God to release the hurt done to him by the offender. He cannot actually forgive the offender unless he repents. That is the teaching in Luke 17:3.

You cannot take all these Scriptures out of their contexts and string them together without regard to context.

 

So Jesus gives His sheep probation...not eternal life? Seems that your theology is based on a prisoners release program alone. Jesus said whoever lives and believes in me will NEVER die. Why would Jesus teases people if they can STILL perish? Nor things future says Romans 8,and John 5:24 says they already passed out of death into life. We are seated in the heavenly's with Christ. Jesus say because I live you SHALL live also. If you can loose your salvation you better like Easter Egg Hunting.........because our life is HIDDEN with Christ in God! Loose something you cannot find??? Happy Hunting!

 

On the contrary - I am arguing that context for Romans 10 will show the New Birth, the New Creation, Repentance and forgiveness EVEN though none of these are explicitly mentioned in the Romans 10 example. But this is easily seen to be the case since in fact there is only "ONE" Gospel.

At the end of the Matt 18 example of "Forgiveness revoked" Christ said "SO shall My Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

And in so doing - it is Christ Himself that is applying the lesson of the parable directly to our salvation experience in God.

In the teaching of Christ I says that the argument is "I FORGAVE you ALL that debt -- and in like manner you are to forgive others". This is the same teaching Christ brings up in the Lord's prayer -- so instead of a deleted doctrine of Christ -- it is a "repeated doctrine of Christ".

And Peter introduces the subject with the question "How many times shall my brother offend me and I forgive him?" .

This is the Matt 18 context of Christ's teaching to his own sheep on the subject of Forgiveness.

As for the "Gospel being preached to us JUST AS IT WAS TO THEM ALSO" Heb 4:2 - I think scripture is clear on that that they all drank from the same spiritual rock "and that Rock was christ" 1Cor 10.

The two-gospel model that many had supposed -- simply does not exist.

in Christ,

Bob

 

In 1John 1:9 "IF we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins". Not a reference in their to "believing" or to "being born again" or to "accepting Christ as your savior".

So if you wanted to imagine a sliver of a new Gospel in 1John 1:9 you could - but not for very long.

1John 2 is very clear that the we are not to sin but if we do we have an advocate with the Father in Christ Jesus who died for our sins - and not for our sins only - but for the sins of the whole world.

Indeed it is.

The bible is a compilation of writings from Bible authors -- and we try to have as many people as are willing -- to read the Bible, accept it's teachings and become saved.

I think we are all familiar with that concept.

so it is a point of common ground agreement.

Your imagination is getting away with you I am afraid.

John is specific as is Paul that without the shedding of blood -- no forgiveness of sins. John argues that the atonining Sacrifice of Christ is for sin -- not just our sin but the sin of the whole world.

As a result "whosoever will" may be saved -- they only need to accept Christ as their savior -- living the new life - instead of the old dead life apart from God.

The curse is only for those who keep inserting a "new gospel" with every text.

For those who accept scripture as the Word of God and the promises of Scripture for forgiveness of sins through the blood of Christ as we see in 1John 2:1-2 it is "The Gospel" being told in more and more detail with each book of scripture.

Slicing up the text into "that is not the Gospel and so also that reference to the sacrifice of Christ for our sins is not the Gospel" kinds of teaching - is extreme to say the least.

I am surprised you feel the need to go there at all.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I didn't mention Romans 10, which does indeed teach salvation:
"For whosoever shall call upon the name shall be saved."
But not every verse in the Bible does. If you say that 1John 2:1 is preaching the gospel, then you do indeed believe in another gospel and are guilty of the condemnation Paul speaks of in Galatians chapter one.

"Forgiveness Revoked" is a "Bob Ryan-made up doctrine" which does not exist in the Bible. It is taught nowhere in the Bible. In all my years of ministry I have never heard the term until I met you, and have only heard the term from you even while on this board. It is exclusively your man-made doctrine, not taught in Scriptures. Furthermore you take this doctrine from a parable. Parables do not teach doctrine, especially doctrine that is not taught elsewhere in Scripture. Parables serve only to illustrate doctrine that is already taught.

Go and re-read Steaver's posts. That wasn't the point of the parable at all.

You neglect the Scripture that goes contrary to your case. When Luke reiterated the same incident recorded in Matthew, he added more detail, the convenient detail that is left out in Matthew; that very detail that you like to avoid.

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luke 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
--Forgiveness always comes at a price--the price of repentance. Your view of forgiveness is warped.
The repeated doctrine of Christ is that salvation is accepted on the basis of repentance.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
--There is no holiness without repentance. No man shall see God without holiness. Repentance comes first. The forgiveness.

Matthew 18:21 is clarified by Luke 17:3,4. You need all the facts.

Yes the same gospel; accepted the same way--by faith alone

So why believe it.

 

That is right, Bob, it would only be your imagination. It speaks of sanctification; not salvation. Read the context.

No matter, the subject is sanctification (just like chapter one); not salvation. Read the context. You can't insert your own wishful context. "My little children" is not speaking about the unsaved. The subject is not about salvation. If you contend that it is, then it is you that believes in another gospel!

It is not only written to Christians but about Christian living; not about salvation. The subject is not about salvation at all. Study the context.

I study my Bible; not my imagination.

The shedding of his blood affects our fellowship with one another as Christians and our fellowship with God. Study this verse:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
--This verse is not speaking about salvation, rather sanctification. If our walk is not right with God, then our fellowship both with our Christian brother and with God will be affected. The verse is speaking of sanctification, or walk with God. Just because the blood is mentioned you can't immediately jump to the conclusion that it is speaking of salvation. The same is true in 1John 2:1

There is no verse in the Bible that says "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, and continue to live the new life instead of the old dead life, shall be saved." That, Bob, is another gospel, an accursed gospel, if not, heresy. The Bible does not teach any such concept.

As quoted above, there is no verse in the Bible that says what you believe.

It is written to Christians about the Christian walk. Let's break it down.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children,--He is writing to believers. This is an affectionate name for believers. And this is who he is giving instruction to.

--these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.--John writes that it is God's will for you Christians not to sin. That is the plain will of God for believers. Don't sin.

--And if any man sin, --There is an "if", and it is a Big "if". We all sin. We do it every day. The trouble is that we can't keep the command given us no matter how hard we try. We do sin. Therefore:
--we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:--God has provided an advocate, a lawyer for us believers. He sits at the right hand of God interceding for us, even though all of our sins are already forgiven and put under the blood with respect to salvation, Christ intercedes for us on behalf of our daily sins that may hinder our walk with Christ. It has nothing to do with salvation, but with sanctification. My salvation will never be called into question. I already have the gift of eternal life.
-- And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
--This is the basis of His promises. He can be my advocate because he has already atoned for my sins. He has already paid the penalty. This is simply the underlying reason for the initial teaching or point that John was making. His basic teaching is one of sanctification not of salvation. His teaching is that we can be sanctified because we have been saved. But he is not teaching about salvation.

 

GE:

This is the point where free-willers' fallacy gets snuffed, and God's Free Grace manifests first. Always, like in this very instance.

 

As Jesus tells us in the parable of the sower, only the first 3 groups of people can fall away because they have no root. But the last group that has a root will never follow a stranger as Jesus explains in John 10:28-29.