Deception and OSAS

Those who don't believe OSAS have doubt, not faith and are thus not saved.

 

Eternal security passages like John 10 are found many times throughout scripture and when you read them they do not beg for any interpretation. They are straight forward using words such as "never, sealed, know, eternal, God will do it, new creature, regeneration, born of God, born again, Christ in you, gift of God, free, grace, faith, not of yourselves, etc".

Anti osas folks you will find wrapped up in parables, OT scriptures or scriptures on things to come, prophecies and revelation of people groups. They will take scripture like in Timothy and declare if a woman remarries after depending on Christ she will be lost to hell. They cannot grasp the different usages of verbs such as translated "damnation". Even when clearly shown how they have misinterpreted the passage they continue on repeating it over and over.

Why? I think it is pride. Not willing to humble oneself and abandon a passage that is clearly not speaking about person salvation. Contentious the scripture calls them, not looking for rightly dividing but looking for a pov to be proped up at all cost.

I was once guilty of this very thing, but when I took an honest look at each passage, keeping it in context and using the requirement for harmonization between all scripture, many of the passages I presupposed personal salvation on were shown to be speaking on other issues. I had to scratch them off my salvation list.

As you can see, no one has told me how I can stop believing in that which I know is true. Key word "regeneration". If they would learn what this word means they would understand "eternal" security.



:godisgood:

 

Interesting.............

HP has declared all can be deceived, therefore he cannot be sure he is saved either.

:godisgood:

 

Waaay over the top. IMO, one who doesn't believe in OSAS has a flaw in their theology. But calling them unsaved? No.

I think you're mis-applying the idea of being "saved through faith." Our faith is in the atoning work of Jesus Christ. Not believing in OSAS, though IMO a huge theological flaw, does not mean that you don't believe in Jesus and His sacrifice.

 

I agree with you on this. Those who are truly born again might tremble on the rock, but the rock will never tremble under them.

 

Excellent points!! To me there is no question that the christian life is a one way street. Once you are atoned for by the Blood of Jesus, regenerated, a child of God, received eternal life, accepted in the beloved, justified by faith, reconciliation back to the Father, sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, passed from death to life, cannot be separated from Christ, Christ as an Advocate and Mediator, being in Christ, Christ in them..etc

There is no indication from scripture that these are reversed by the works or lack of works, or lack of faith, or excessive sins, of those whom have already been converted and received completely by all these very definite promises of actual substance made by God to those whom believe in Christ for salvation at the moment they first believe.

If/when a christian sins God will chastise them for their sins but God does not reverse everything He has said and done to that individual to make it as if they were never saved, no where can the New Covenant ever be understood to have those conditions.

Darren

 

Good stuff! :thumbs:

:jesus:.............not of yourselves!

 

Agreed, weak faith would be a better way of putting it. Doubting is a lack of faith though. This is why we exhort and encourage others to embrace the fullness of being a child of God. We want them to be strong in faith and waver not!

Just look at what not understanding osas has done to HP. He has gone so far as to declare Christians can be decieved about the Holy Spirit, that no one can know for sure 100% they are saved. The Holy Spirit is God's only seal to convince a person they are saved. but even the Spirit comes under attack by those who do not grasp eternal security in Christ.

:jesus:

 

No I would argue that Romans 8:15-16 makes it clear that the assurance of salvation is a real transactional experience that we have now.

And Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" relies heavily on the fact that the one who is saved - and thus - who is fully forgiven "knows it" such that they are now under obligation to "forgive others JUST AS you have BEEN fully pardoned".

The fact that the servant does not -- is then without excuse and thus they are once again - lost with all of their former debt returned to them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

No such doctrine--"forgiveness revoked." Learn hermeneutics. Parables don't teach doctrine; they only illustrate doctrine already previously taught elsewhere. Thus your teaching goes against Scripture and the way Scripture is properly interpreted.

 

Then we agree on two points. You have expeienced regeneration and you know it is true. So how do you then stop believing that which you have experienced as truth and know it to be truth?

 

In Matt 18 the unforgiving servant is not accused of "not believing he was forgiven" -- he is accused of failing his obligation to forgive others JUST as he was fully forgiven. The reproof given him in the story relied upon his firm conviction that indeed he was fully forgiven and argued that since this was so plainly stated as the case - why did he not comply with his obligation to forgive others "in like manner" -- in the same way that he knew that he was fully forgiven.

"Unbelief" can take the form of simply choosing not to walk in faith. So as we see in Matt 25 and in the Matt 7 accounts many will stand before Christ saying that they believed until the day they died -- but for many that faith, that love "had grown cold" they retained the "mental ascent to the facts" but they no longer had the changed life.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I challenge you to provide the verse in Matt 7 and in Matt 25 which states these "believed in Jesus Christ". Understanding from scripture that "believing in Jesus Christ" is defined as "born-again, a new creation, a new heart, old has past away all things have become new, Spirit testifying with spirit, Holy Spirit indwellment, my sheep hear my voice and they follow me, etc". It's not there. In fact Matt 7 goes as far as to say "I NEVER KNEW YOU", that is absolute, never regenerated, never saved, never had faith in Jesus Christ. Using the name of Jesus for propaganda and person gain is very common throughout history.

Second, can you provide a verse from Matt 18 which states the servant showed he had a "changed life" (a requirement you gave for true faith) that he had been born-again and not just accepted he was forgiven by "mental ascent to the facts"?

:jesus:

 

In Matt 18 the unforgiving servant not only believed the King - but the King Himself admits that the servant was fully forgiven -- and then that servant experienced "forgiveness revoked".

In Romans 11 that point is made clearly that "you STAND by your faith" and that you "should FEAR for if He did not spare them - neither will he spare you".

In Gal 5:4 we see the case of those "severed FROM Christ and Fallen FROM Grace".

All examples of those who by faith were joined TO Christ and were entered UNDER Grace and then fell.

In the Rev 2 case "The love had grown cold".

There are many many examples of what you seem to argue "does not exist".

in Christ,

Bob

 

If one does not believe in the concept we often call "once saved, always saved", what, then, are the scriptural requirements for losing one's salvation, and how does that not qualify as a work?

 

Let's look at Romans 2:6-11, Matt 18's "forgiveness revoked" and Ezek 18's example of forgiveness revoked and see.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I see you provided zero evidence of what you declared was written in Matt 7 and Matt 25 that these "believed in Jesus Christ" (born again).

You need to step back from your pov and honestly evaluate just what you argue. Your trademark in your arguments is "conjecture". You consistently say a passage says something that simply just isn't there, and in some cases ignore that which is there, rather than just sticking to the facts that are given.

Now, much of your main argument always comes from Matt 7, Matt 25 and Matt 18 in which you say "these all had faith in Jesus Christ". Unless you can prove this from what has been written you need to abandon these passages and cut them from your argument. You can keep your pov of OSAS, but you need to drop these passages that hinder your cause and actually makes your argument look contrived.

:jesus:

 

And they shall never perish.........................................................................................................................................................................................................hummmm...................how long is never?

 

I see you completely ignored the saved-then-lost issue in Matt 18, Ezek 18, Gal 5:4, John 15:1-7, Romans 11...

In Matt 25 we do not see the "I never knew you case" limiting the various forms of being lost.

In Matt 7 it could be argued that Christ is speaking about those who never were saved - but simply said all the right words as if they were.

That leaves you with a lot of ground to cover (or ignore depending on the solution that you take) when it comes to those saved-then-lost scenarios listed above.

You seem to want to argue that you have an OSAS solution for Matt 18 -- so far you have yet to post it.

For my part - I have stated from the very start that one of the many flavors of being lost -- includes groups that were never saved to start with. It also includes the saved-then-lost groups of Matt 18, Ezek 18, John 15:1-11, Romans 11, Gal 5:4 ...

Which is where the OSAS idea seems to run aground.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Both Mat 7 and Mat 25 speak of false prophets and false teachers, who "never knew Christ," and thus were never saved in the first place. For what do you think the phrase means: "I never knew you." It is fairly clear to me.