Featured Do Christians still have their old nature/flesh after salvation?

It doesn't matter what you say about these people. It appears your comprehension skills are very poor. Don't post what you don't believe, and then say you believe it. That is hypocrisy.
Here it is again.

What is wrong with your understanding of that statement Icon?

The author of the statement (whoever it may be) states that Paul is a mature believer very conscious of the indwelling sin within him. He sees himself before the law as the perfect example of weakness and inconsistency (to the law--sin), which defines the carnal Christian.
Remember: He is the mature Christian who has indwelling sin within him, has a new nature, and therefore is carnal. This is what he believes--old nature/new nature = carnal.
You don't believe this. He does. Don't tell me otherwise. It is here in black and white. I can read it for myself.

Don't post what you don't believe, then try to convince us that you do believe it when you don't. It doesn't and won't work.

 

I have quoted to you Calvin previously.
He believes in the Carnal Christian.
He never mentions Lordship Salvation.

We may safely conclude that "Lordship Salvation" as defined today, and the denial of "Carnal Christians" as described in 1Cor.3:1-5 are new and novel doctrines not henceforth known in the older commentaries.
Search and ye shall not find.

 

DHK

here is the DHK we know...strawman being constructed stand by!

Nothing DHK...I could post several sermons by this author....I know him, I have heard him teach and preach on this topic 40-50 times...:laugh:

You have conveniently ignored this portion;

You ignore this...as your sidekick Dconn does{ he must be figuring out how to repair his false stronghold doctrine in light of this...}

There is NO CARNAL Christian...Paul is saying as the quote highlights that in relation to God's Holy law...he is carnal and sold under sin.....that is what leads to this statement in the chapter....

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Your statement here is in coherent....Paul clarifies in chat 8.....a person is either carnal or Spiritual.....everyone knows that but you.

Evidently you cannot read with comprehension....I am telling you otherwise. I know the person who wrote this,and I have used it by permission...call him and ask....instead of accuse me. He understands this false teaching is like a plague on the land,and you and Dconn perpetuate it.

I know for a fact that is the complete opposite of what this Pastor believes. Your lack of reading comprehension is only trumped by your stubborn refusal when I point you to the solution...you not only reject it, but double down on your error:thumbsup:

So now you are stating that the Apostle Paul is a carnal Christian...wonderful DHK... I would not believe this if I did not see it with my own eyes:thumbsup:

 

A fine accusation coming from someone who, having seen the Spurgeon quote, completely to construct a completely irrelevant and false argument that tried to explain it away. " ... this 'false teaching' did not exist ... " Pffft!

 

Yes, he did. He said it with his own words, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Who am I to contradict God?

You have never answered me yet on this one question Icon. Here it is:

Paul said:
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Answer these questions:
1. In verse 24, who is the "I"? That is who is speaking?
2. If it is Paul, why is he confessing that he is a wretched man (referring to nature), and needs to be delivered from his body of death (which encompasses his wretched nature)?
3. The same "I" or speaker is in verse 25. How does an unregenerate person thank God through Jesus Christ OUR Lord, if verse 24 refers to an unregenerate person.
If it doesn't refer to an unregenerate person, then are there not two natures that the person is referring to, if they are the same person?

 

DHK

everyone knows what the verse says...the question is how to understand it.

when you and dconn and anyone else ignore Romans 6:6
which starts by describing that the condition of believers has been radically changed....I answered this in post 23.....how do you not see this....what exactly was crucified there.....start with that....I will do more at lunch...

I have to ask you....are you sincere in your questions here? Or are pulling my leg?

 

Of course I am sincere. There is a reason you cannot answer the questions I ask concerning Romans 7. Your theology is wrong. Paul gives his testimony in chapter seven and you don't accept it.

 

yeah there is a reason I can't answer what you said about Romans 7 the reason is because I'm driving and can't sit at a keyboard I'm using voice to text so when I do get to sit at a keyboard it it will not be a hard thing to show why you are an error still an who's the ology hold s up to what the Scripture teaches

 

Icon ...

It's amazing to me that you insist on dragging me, by name, into a discussion I've chosen not to join. Given your crude adherence to a man-made theology based on error, and your holier-than-thou attitude toward anyone's level of faith that doesn't agree with you, I'm sure most others here understand why I would not decide to encounter you in another fruitless effort.

I have not addressed you specifically on this point. Why would you include me in your harangue over a disagreement that has not been expressed?

Surely I represent a real threat to your grip on faith, if you have to include me in one of your unreasoning and unsupportable rants. My granddad had a great piece of advice for me very early on in life.

He said, "Son, don't wrestle with a pig. He loves it, and all you get is dirty."

 

there was a reason you and decon ignore Romans 6 1 to 6 where it says shall we continue in sin that grace may abound you and decon apparently would answer oh yes by all means go ahead it doesn't really matter you just lose a few tootsie rolls in the future Millennial Kingdom

 

Dcon
you did address me in this post and just because you do a little drive by attacks and then sneak away doesnt mean that I'm not going to speak to your accusations

 

Fine. Speak to my accusations. But I haven't taken part in this discussion for some time, yet you persist in dragging my name into your diatribe. You apparently think my reference to the Spurgeon quote referenced only you. Not true. I represented all the hardline, unyielding strict adherents to the teachings of men dead four centuries over allowing the Bible to speak for itself. If you count yourself among them, so be it.

At least Spurgeon thought for himself and could reason through the piles of nonsense they wrote which he then saw fit to reject. He was able to study for himself and reach his own reasoned conclusions. I don't always agree with him, either, but at least I can see that Spurgeon read the Reformed authors from the beginning of the movement and saw they got some right and some wrong. I rarely see anyone on this board who has that same ability to reason.

As I said, I must represent something fearful for you to be included when I have participated very peripherally. Six posts total, and four of them to address your address to me for no cause. :laugh:

And by the way:

That's 69 words, 247 characters. It's an awfully lot of output for not being at a keyboard. [/FONT][/SIZE]

 

There is no excuse Icon. You follow along in all these threads. These are just some of the threads where I have explained it, and you have not said a word:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2123209&postcount=25

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2118979&postcount=199

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2118650&postcount=178

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2118462&postcount=159

You have never refuted me Icon, not once.

 

This issue of a supposed "sin nature" residing in a man, simply cannot be understood without incorporating a very clear understanding of the distinction between the body and the spirit.

The apostles taught that we reside in a tent. We are a spirit being, dwelling in a BODY of death.

Stop trying to spiritualize a lump of flesh and blood. It is our body which is condemned to die on account of Adam, because of sin. But the spirit has been washed, and us now incapable of sinning.

Paul said "it is no longer I who do it, but sin which is in me - that is, in my BODY"

 

I would have to use the heresy word here. That is what entire sanctification is. Anyone who claims they are incapable of sinning has fallen into grievous error if not heresy.
What happens when one makes that claim?
Let's look at the Scripture:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Accordingly, the one who claims sinlessness:
1. He deceives himself.
2. The truth is not in him.
3. He makes Christ a liar.
3. The Word is not in him.

For those reasons it falls into the category of heresy. John makes some clear strong statements about those who claim to be without sin.

 

thisnumbersdisconnected

sometimes the threads and comments bleed over into another thread.

No...but I am fond of CHS.

Most of those "dead men' as you call them...had more knowledge than you and I put together . The bible has not changed in 4oo yrs ..so if they wrote something true then..it is true now.

.

as if those men did not let the bible speak for itself then

theological discussion is a pile of nonsense to you....I see:laugh:
Only you and Spurgeon are able to see through it sure dcon

.

Spurgeons library had over 5100 books in it
....He did not think this was nonsense as you foolishly posted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkgvomWewlA

.

Again as you post this falsehood the video shows your folly.

we all do or we would be Presbyterian.

yes..this distorted post is an example of why:laugh:

My phone has voice to text..i was stopped at a truckstop.

 

DHK

I have not only answered you on this several times, and have refuted each of your falsehoods. You just do not welcome the truth...so by repeating it again do you think it will sink in this time?

I answered in post 23....did you not read this???

You have conveniently ignored this portion;


Quote:
It is vital to understand Rom. 6:6 in this connection: “Knowing this, that our old man...[was, aorist tense] crucified with him, [in order] that the body of sin might be destroyed, [in order] that henceforth we should not serve [aswilling bondslaves to] sin.”

The “old man” was the unregenerate self, who was crucified with Christ, i.e., died with Christ in his death. The reason is so the body with its appetites might no longer dominate the personality, and that the believer will now no longer live as he once did—a willing bondslave to sin.

The believer is the “new [regenerate] man” in Christ. The “crucifixion of
the old man” is therefore not a subjective experience to be sought, but a
reality to be reckoned in the experience, as noted in Romans 6:11–14 and 1
Peter 2:24.

You ignore this...Quote:

There is NO CARNAL Christian...Paul is saying as the quote highlights that in relation to God's Holy law...he is carnal and sold under sin.....that is what leads to this statement in the chapter....18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.



in vs 6...THE OLD MAN WAS CRUCIFIED....it is no longer alive...But Paul is still in a body that can sin.....he makes it quite clear to anyone who has not been mislead as you have been.....there are only two men....carnal or spiritual...


those in the flesh.....in green colors
those in the Spirit...in red

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

see DHK.....two men..flesh/spirit...see it????

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


two men...flesh/ spirit....see it????
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

two men.....carnal/ spiritual....see it..????
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh,but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

two men.....flesh /Spirit.....see it????


10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.




there was a reason you ignore Romans 6 1 to 6 where it says shall we continue in sin that grace may abound.
You apparently would answer oh yes by all means go ahead it doesn't really matter you just lose a few tootsie rolls in the future Millennial Kingdom ...

I have answered you...on the other hand...Not only do you ignore romans 6:6, but you make like it has nothing to do with Pauls statement in romans 7..

no wonder you cannot begin to grasp it....

The reason Romans 6 says what it does is because of the elects sure and saving Position ...IN UNION with Christ....that is why they can no longer continue in sin...as you suggest....

Even as a Christian Paul abhors the fact that in relation to God's Holy law...he is still able to commit acts of sin.....despite the new man desiring to obey God's holy law.......The old man is already crucified...you ignore that and try to build a case ignoring the foundation.....not a sound teaching move on your part.

 

Posted by Iconoclast:

You have not answered me; you have ignored me, side-stepped the question, gone off on different tangent, but never answered the question directly and honestly.

You have conveniently ignored Romans 7:24,25.

Yes, we should not serve sin; but often you do, as we all do.

The "old man" is your old nature that you still have. Paul, in 1Cor.15:31, says "I die daily." Every day he must put that old nature to death. In Gal.2.20 he says: "I am crucified with Christ yet Christ liveth in me." Both are true at the same time. Both natures exist at the same time.

It is to be "reckoned." It is not a reality. The old man always exists. It struggles with the new man. Whichever you feed the most will win.

The author of the statement quoted says there is a carnal Christian, so you are at odds with the author of that statement. You also contradict what Calvin says, as well as the Baptist Catechism from which you posted. You are just plain wrong. You contradict the clear teaching of 1Cor.3:1-5. You believe in a new and novel doctrine that has only been taught in the last 40 years or so. You won't find it before that time.

You can't answer these last two verses and never have.

Paul didn't say: "we." He said "I." There is one man, and only one man.
He is one man with two natures. You do not rightly divide the word of truth.

Hmmm. Maybe I am color-blind.:laugh:
There is only one man, but two natures. Paul continues to use the first person singular, "I" never the first person plural "we." He is talking of himself personally. He is not schizophrenic. He has two natures, just as you do. You seem to deny the depravity of man. Do you?

Paul said "I." That means one man. That is easy to see.

One man--Paul uses "I." Every believer has two natures. They choose to serve one nature. Which do you serve? The answer is given in Romans 7:24,25 which you have never addressed.


Now go back and answer Romans 7:24,25. Stop side stepping the issuing by reverting back chapters six and eight. Paul's testimony is in chapter seven. If you can't deal with that just say so. Bow out of the discussion, and say you don't know. Admit that Paul must have a carnal nature because he says he does and you can't explain it except by going outside of the chapter.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--How does this unsaved man, with an old nature say: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord..."

Waiting for an answer.

 

DHK

I have answered you in post 23, and post 37.....and now again.
What you call a tangent and no answer...is to anyone who reads it...an answer in context that exposes your falsehoods.
It seems you have bit on the hook of this error and have lost any ability to spit out the hook and take in solid food.

This is a lie.You failing to see the answer is not me ignoring anything

You say this....Paul said this;
It is vital to understand Rom. 6:6 in this connection: “Knowing this, that our old man...[was, aorist tense] crucified with him, [in order] that the body of sin might be destroyed, [in order] that henceforth we should not serve [aswilling bondslaves to] sin.”

You said we still have it...Paul said it WAS crucified. You repeat your error over so much that you believe your error over scripture:thumbsup:

No... the old nature was already put to death...and Gal 2 actually says we are co-crucified with Christ.....He mortifies sin , he puts it to death, because He has one new nature. The Holy Spirit has put it to death already.

As I told you...the motions of sin in his body wage war against His holy nature.

Your failure to understand this....SAVING UNION...in Christ renders you unable in light of this to not grasp romans 7:24-25 correctly...the result is everytime you post here or open your mouth in front of people you offer error.

this is why your error goes on and on.....the old man was crucified, the new man lives. Both natures do not exist! HE DOES NOT SAY...my old nature was wounded...he says it was put to death, executed by capital punishment.
You added this idea to the text.failing to understand it leaves you in error..here it is in ylt;
Romans 6 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

6 What, then, shall we say? shall we continue in the sin that the grace may abound?

2 let it not be! we who died to the sin -- how shall we still live in it?

3 are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized?

4 we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.
5 For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, [so] also we shall be of the rising again;

6 this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;

You directly and blatantly defy the plain text of scripture...
it is a past completed actionIt is vital to understand Rom. 6:6 in this connection: “Knowing this, that our old man...[was, aorist tense] crucified with him, [in order] that the body of sin might be destroyed, [in order] that henceforth we should not serve [aswilling bondslaves to] sin.”

only in your mind and in the teaching of others who share this falsehood.

again one error leads to another in this man made theory as I have said several times....man made error, man centered teaching, denying the Spirits work in salvation and sanctification........wrongly dividing the word of truth.

Do you have a problem telling the truth DHK? I told you this is the Same Pastor who preached on the carnal Christian heresy....I have told you this very clearly....are you telling a deliberate falsehood.
I told you quite clearly...I personally know this Pastor. Why would you say this willful falsehood?

you repeat this:

It is the same Pastor...I gave you his church website, his phone number, his sermon on the carnal Christian heresy....I have spoken with him on this very topic,,,face to face...I told you this;

I said it here in post 18

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=94020&page=2
your foul respose was to accuse me ???/

I answered your false charge again here;
Quote:from dhk
You don't believe this. He does. Don't tell me otherwise. It is here in black and white. I can read it for myself.

Evidently you cannot read with comprehension....I am telling you otherwise. I know the person who wrote this,and I have used it by permission...call him and ask....instead of accuse me. He understands this false teaching is like a plague on the land,
I know for a fact that is the complete opposite of what this Pastor believes...

a lie

I did answer

."

He said we in romans 6:1-6...there are no chapter divisions remember..6,7,8 are one unit..

But I do...it is you who wrongly fragment the word, add your own ideas , and come up on the short end of the stick..

When they discuss the carnal Christian heresy they can use your posts as evidence for it.

You have been given an answer yet again...He addresses the church in chap 6 explaining who we are in Christ.....and we no longer practice sin...living under its power. In chapter seven he addresses our struggle with remaining sin and corruption using himself as an example....then in chap 8 he clarifies and gives the remedy of mortifying remaining sin.