Featured God calls you to be an overcomer by living a holy life!

Well, no, "believe" actually means "believe". Paul said we stand ONLY through our faith (Ro 11) and that by grace are ye saved through faith, it is the GIFT of God, and not of YOURSELVES (Eph 2)

"Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." (Ro 4)

Well, we all have the scriptures to reference. Can you do me a favor and find a scripture which opposes....

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Rev12:9-12)

I just don't find all this sinlessness and commandment keeping when the scripture speaks of the overcomers.

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Ro 4)

Amen!!!! Lord, have mercy on me a sinner raying:

 

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Rev12:9-12)

ONLY Jesus can take away your sin brother :love2:

Well, we understand that we are sinners. I asked you a few times if you would estimate how often you sin, once a year maybe, twice a year, once a week, once a day? But you never answer, why is that? If you are going to preach to us that a BAC must not sin or be damned to hell then you really need to tell us what a sinless BAC looks like. Otherwise, your "opinion" carries no weight.

I'm not sure where you got this from. Either you went to heaven and looked at the books, or Jesus appeared to you and told you this, or the Holy Spirit has told you something He has never told anyone else. I highly doubt you actually have knowledge of this.

 

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

The elect overcome, people who trust in their own works do not.

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

 

They lived holy lives because they possess eternal life. Thank you for so clearly stating that you don't believe the gospel. The only reason I post in threads where you do is to expose your false teachings, not to debate you. You've been taken captive by the devil to do his will, which is to distort the gospel and spit on the perfect righteousness of Christ which is imputed to His elect and is our sole, perfect ground for the eternal life which we already possess. He causes us to grow in His grace and knowledge until we see Him and are perfected.

 

Jesus points this out in Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter... but he who DOES".

So that would be Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father... he who HEARS these words of mine and ACTS on them is like a man who builds his house upon a rock" - hear God's Word - and obey.

John puts the same point yet another way in 1John 2:3-6 - as it turns out.

Romans 11 "You stand only by you faith... you should fear for if He did not spare the natural branches neither will He spare you... but He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief".

Now you are posting like someone who actually believes in some form of "perseverance of the saints".

Interesting that you would admit to the Bible doctrine. I will take agreement wherever it is to be found.

So also does Romans 2:13-16 make the same point as James 2 "it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be JUSTIFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge"


in Christ,

Bob

 

In Rev 12:11 they " overcome by the blood of the lamb and the Word of the testimony".

In Rev 12 they are those who survive past the 1260 years of the dark ages persectuion - and "KEEP the Commandments of God AND hold to the Testimony of Jesus" !2:17.

In Rev 19:10 we are told that the "Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy".

In Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

This agrees with Section 19 the Baptist Confession of Faith - both the 1689 version and the one in the 1800's as edited by C.H. Spurgeon. (Which is a perfect match with section 19 of the Westminster Confession of Faith).


And as already noted - John is pretty consistent in writing this way --


1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


1John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Well, I thought you believed Paul when he said you stand ONLY by your faith. Now you post Paul against Paul. Not sure that will help make your case. Maybe it would be more instructive if you can show your students how to harmonize the two points Paul makes. (Hint, go to James, he explains how doing the good works in the law are the evidence of true faith in Jesus Christ. Ephesians also explains how you are saved through faith alone UNTO good works. Just a couple places you can study)

 

I don't think we are left to wonder at all. ......"and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Why were all of the apostles killed? Because they had a testimony of obedience to the law? Ah, that would be a "no". In fact, they were killed because they spoke against the keeping of the law for justification before God. So, it is obvious that their "testimony" is the testimony of faith in Jesus Christ and His blood which justifies the believer.

Come on guys!! This is elementary doctrine in Christ.

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat....

.....Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."

Notice he did not mention "and the keeping of the law". Well hey, maybe it slipped his mind......Not!

 

Note that the mere quote of Romans 2 gives rise to your objection. Your argument is "with the text" - but it need not be.

Oddly enough you post against Romans 2 as if to accept Romans 2 is to "post against Paul" -- is it possible that you have two problems here?

1. You only quote a snippet of a verse in Romans 11 instead of the whole thing.

2. you seem to imagine an either-or-fallacy that says you can either believe Paul in Romans 2 or in Romans 11 but not both. How odd.

So to help you with that.

Here is Romans 11 that you are so careful not to quote.

[FONT=&quot]Romans 11


18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness andseverity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also,if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

[/FONT]
And here is Romans 2 where you make the self-conflicted claim to accept what Paul says in Romans 2 is to be "against Paul"

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Too late for me to do it - you already did that with your application of James 2 (see next quote from you) -- and as I noted that is exactly what is going on in Romans 2, so you need not oppose Romans 2 once you have figured out that you are free to accept James 2.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Well, Bob, I have given you my position on justification before God many times. In short...

1) one is justified by grace through faith apart from any works of the law.

2) After one is justified by grace through faith (saved), by virtue of the believer's new God given heart (born-again), one's faith produces obedience and good works, which obedience and works are defined by James to be a justification of the true believer's said confession.

However, you seem to be confused by Romans 2. But, maybe you just haven't explained it well, or maybe I haven't listened well. So here are Paul's two statements, I will let you explain to us how they are not contradictory.

Ro2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Ro3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

It's all yours Bob, explain how the two are not contradictory.

For the record, I will give you my explanation. Ro2:13 in it's context is declaring all under sin and condemned, for no one is able to keep the law. Thus, Ro2:13 does not contradict Ro3:20 (not to mention numerous other saved by faith alone passages)

But, somehow you see it differently, so please explain the contradiction for us.

 

You may want to read over your post again. First you say everlasting life comes last, i.e. God's free gift (Ro6:23), and then you say it comes before.

 

As bro BobRyan always says...just pointing out the obvious here :thumbs:

 

Yes and I particularly like that statement you made above about James 2 because you admit to seeing the same thing in James 2 - that Paul is also saying in Romans 2 when it comes to justification future.

Now there - see?

You did it again.

That was not so hard.

And Romans 2 is in perfect agreement with James 2 and also your statement on justification in James 2.

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Not even a little.

James 2 and Romans 2 are addressing the same issue with justification.

Once you allow yourself to admit to it in James 2 - then admitting to it in Romans 2 is the easy part.

Romans 2 does not contradict James 2 at all - it is in perfect agreement with it.

You are skimming over all the "inconvenient details" in Romans 2 as if the text does not even exist.

Romans 2 does not say - everyone goes to hell or all are going to be lost "on that day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge". instead of that Paul points to the saved and to the lost and the difference between them.

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Romans 2 deals with justification future - "on that day when according to my Gospel God WILL judge".

Romans 2 - When the saved are shown to be already saved and the lost are shown to be already lost by the time of that judgment future.

This point is even more clear in Romans 2 than it is in James 2. So the one who figures it out in James 2 -- has a very easy time in Romans 2.


But Romans 3 is dealing with justification past. When the lost became saved.

in Christ,

Bob

 

And on that day shall no flesh be justified by the law.

 

You may quote yourself all you wish - I am just saying that when we pay attention to the actual text of Romans 2 -- it is in full agreement with actual text of James 2 - and goes even further than James 2- by explaining that this is in reference to the future GOSPEL judgment.

Romans 2 is careful to leave us with the blind assumption that only failure is the result in that future judgment. (Far more detail on this subject than we get in James 2)

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
in Christ,

Bob

 

maybe

Let's cut to the core issue of this debate with a simple question, then maybe everyone will understand your pov.

In your pov of this text, do you expect you yourself to be judged, justified or not (saved or lost), before God according to your works of the law?