Featured How did the Apostle Paul get it so wrong?

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Ro 4:8

 

Icon,
I just finished reading this thread for the first time and I find your OP a bit deceitful. You quoted me (out of context) from a thread in the Calvinist forum.

 

....dagnabit I was going to use that later on and now you've done gone and beat me to it....

 

Or more accurately, Icon, is simply to admit that she agrees with you, not that she had it right.

It is your problem how to deal with James 4:4, but it is in the Bible, and it is written to believers. They are strong words. You don't like the content. Too bad. James has some harsh things to those who choose to live a worldly life.

Your OP had nothing to do with the context or the topic of those verses which deal with the topic of carnality and worldly living.
It seems that you don't like scripture that speaks against living a worldly life, like James 4:4; 1John 2:15,16; Rom.12:2, scriptures that are either obeyed or not, just like any other command. If disobeyed, the life lived is a life of carnality, a life according to the dictates and desires of the flesh.
That goes against many Calvinists' teaching, but it is the teaching of the scriptures. And that is what has you upset. You can't deal with the scriptures.

Who is the many? You and SBM?
SBM believes one is regenerated in eternity past before the foundation of the world. Do you also believe that?

We have differed on this passage before. It is a continuation from chapter seven, which we have differed on before. Chapter 7 is Paul's testimony--his struggle between two natures--the old and the new, is described quite vividly there. Near the end of the chapter Paul cries out in despair, as it were:

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
--The answer comes in the next verse.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--This was Paul's struggle between his two natures. He describes the conclusion here and gives the solution for victory.
With the mind he serves the law of God, (or he has a choice: ),
With the flesh (that old nature), he can serve the law of sin.
Both natures are present within him. Then comes chapter 8.

In verse one there is a reassurance: "There is no condemnation..."
But let's go right down to verse 5ff

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

All of this is still a continuation of chapter seven and is written to the believer of how to overcome his sinful nature, and live in the power of the Spirit.
We always have a choice--whether to live according to a sinful nature or to live according to the Spirit. That is a choice that we make.
--The former "having their minds set on the flesh," or "what nature desires."
An unbeliever cares only for sinful desires. A believer can act as an unbeliever and give into those sinful desires acting according to his sinful nature or the flesh. (verse 5--"Minding the things of the flesh")

The mind, or mind-set of the sinful man is death, that is it is equivalent to death, whether it be physical death or spiritual death. Sin always leads to death. Death is separation. Sin separates one from God.

On the other hand when one submits their mind to the Spirit it brings life and peace (Romans 5:1; John 10:10).
--The sinful mind, that is the carnal mind, is always hostile against God just as it declares in James 4:4. These two passages harmonize perfectly. The sinful mind will not submit to the law of God.
Verse 8--Therefore they that are in the flesh, live a carnal life, cannot please God, just as it says in James 4:4. The are the enemies of God. God hates the carnal life, the believer that lives according to the desires of the flesh instead of the desires of the Holy Spirit. He is living as an unsaved person. That is what this passage is about.

You both are confused about the passage. She is not right at all.

It is a command. In every command there is a choice.
It is the choice to obey or disobey. I fully explained that in my post.

You are either conformed to the world or not conformed to the world.
There is no reading into the passage there.
You are either conformed to the world or conformed to Christ (Romans 8::29)

The choice is yours. It is one of obedience or disobedience.

 

Icon, the attitude expressed here: "recant your false teaching, etc." is the attitude expressed by "the desires of the flesh" which is the teaching brought out in Romans 8. It is not one who is acting according to the Spirit. It is your "old nature" that you are giving into when you say those things.
There is no third man. I never admitted to that. That is your false accusation, or simply your misunderstanding.

But first, I didn't quote the first few verses of Romans 8 to save space. I am not here to write a book or a commentary on the entire chapter. I was simply providing context for verse 8 of chapter 8.

The commentary that I gave is the correct one. When you sin you give into your carnal self. That old nature still lives in you. What did Paul mean when he said:
Rom 7:24-25
(24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
(25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This is Paul speaking. How can it be anyone else. He thanks God for the victory that God has given him through Christ. With the mind he serves the law of God, or:
with the flesh he serves the law of sin.
That is the choice Paul sets before all Christians. Which road do you choose?
The believer needs to continually yield himself to the Holy Spirit, which is what chapter 8 is all about. But no Christian is perfect. Christians do sin; they do give into the flesh.

That, again is where your problem is--admitting it.
Romans 12:2; 1John 2:15,16 and especially James 4:4 written to believers.
Such scripture you detest as it applies to Scripture.
But then what do you do with 1John 1:8,10.
In your heart you know you do sin. If you claim sinlessness you deny Christ at the same time. If you admit you sin, then you must admit carnality and the carnal Christian. You are backed into a corner that you can't get out of.

However, Romans 8 is speaking of believers, the believers at Rome. That is who the book is written to. He is writing how to live a victorious Christian life.
Instead of living a life yielding to the desires of the flesh (which God hates),
the believer needs to live a life yielding himself to the desires of the Holy Spirit which alone will bring life and peace.

 

From original post:

I'm curious....what in the world is "random" about someone who was specifically targeted?

 

Paul had just said that where "sin abounded grace did much more abound" and so he anticipates the objection, that goes like this "well, if grace abounds more so where sins abounds then by all means let us keep on sinning so that grace may more abound."

So he is responding to the idea of intentionally living in sin that grace may more abound. He is addressing INTENT toward sin. He is not addressing the unintentional problem of sin in the Christian life. That is addressed in chapter seven and eight.

So of course, in regard to INTENTIONAL sin, the answer is "God forbid."

Paul's argument is that there is no such thing as a justified person by faith without works, that is not also a regenerated person. In the act of water baptism we publicly identify with the death of Christ to sin as well as with the resurrection to a new empowered life over sin. Water baptism openly and publicly declares what actually was obtained previously through spiritual union with Christ by regeneration.

So Paul points them to their baptismal identification with Christ which openly and publicly declared their spiritual union with Christ and therefore their death with Christ to sin but more importantly his resurrection life which is antithetic to sin and the key to overcoming sin.

So in regard to INTENTIONAL living in sin, that is antithetical to geniune salvation, as the very nature of regeneration changes the governing inclination toward sin so that cannot possibly be the INTENT of a genuine saved person. However, the DEGREE of sin manifest in Lot versus Abraham is entirely a different question, as that does not deal with INTENT but with WEAKNESS versus growth in sanctification.

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

Rom. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The easiest way to interpret verse 8 is to start with verse 9 and work backwards.

For example, ask the question who are those Paul says are "none of his" at the end of verse 9? Now work backwards. They are those that "have not the Spirit of Christ". Who are they? Continue working backwards, who are those who do have the Spirit of Christ? Answer, they are those "But ye are NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you".

Therefore, those who are "none of his" are those "in the flesh." Now that is who is speaking about in verse 8 - "they that are in the flesh" these are "none of his" hence they are those who do not have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them - the lost.

Hence, "in the flesh" = the lost condition, whereas "in the Spirit" = saved condition.

So, those "in the flesh" have nothing other than a "carnal" fleshly "mind" (v. 7) and that is why they cannot please God (v. 8).

However, is it possible for those who have the Spirit of God dwelling in them, or those in a saved condition still have the indwelling law of sin and corruption in their physical bodies? Does not Paul say that only at the resurrection will this body put on the "incorruptible" nature but prior to that the body still has the principle/law of corruption?

1 Cor. 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


Only our spirit has been born of God and created in righteousness and true holiness (Jn. 3;6; Col. 3:10; Eph. 4:24). That is not the state of our physical bodies. Therefore the principle of sin and corruption still reigns in our physical body until glorification at the resurrection.

In Romans 7:14-25 Paul is referring to the PHYSICAL FLESH or our MORTAL BODIES (vv. 14,18,23-25) that we will not be fully delivered from until Christ returns, wherein the "law of sin" NOW dwells in contrast to the "inward man" that delights in the Law of God.

Hence, in the true child of God who is indwelt by the Spirit of God and in regard to his spirit is "in the Spirit" but that is not the condition of his body where there is a principle of corruption, law of sin abiding in his body that is elsewhere described as the "appetites of the flesh" must be daily mortified or put to death or it assumes the control of our mind as described in Romans 8:7 which mindset completely dominates those without the Spirit of God (Rom. 8:8).

However, it is because we have the indwelling Spirit that we can mortify the law of sin that indwells our body and prevent that mindset from controlling our life in Romans 8:7. Our soul is the battle zone between indwelling law of sin and the indwelling Spirit of God in our spirit. That is why we must "put on" the new man and "put off" the old man on a daily basis or as Jesus says except a man deny himself and crucify himself DAILY he cannot be my disciple. Hence, this is not a once for act, but a DAILY action that is required which in other Biblical terms is defined as being "filled with the Spirit."

Lu 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily

 

I do Icon; it's too bad you don't accept the truth when it is taught, especially on progressive sanctification. Do you really believe that a person is ready and equipped for the mission field on the day he is saved as LS teaches--"unless he forsakes all that he has and follows me he cannot be my disciple."
This eliminates the doctrine of progressive sanctification.

This is not my problem. If you can't understand the Scriptures then whose problem is it? The believer ALWAYS has a choice: to obey or disobey. That doesn't mean there are 3 types of people. Where do you get that from. I never suggested that, so it is a random false inference--something you shouldn't do.
You can obey or not obey. That is what is at stake here.
Often when a believer disobeys it is out of his own fleshly desires--his own carnality.
Let's take a good practical example. How many Christians do you know that are obese? How did they get there? Don't tell me "hormonal problems," because that is less than 2% of the population. It is because they indulge in the sin of gluttony. They are not temperate. They don't take care of their body. They give into their fleshly appetites. They are carnal--overweight, and God hates it (James 4:4).
The same holds true with adultery--to look upon a woman and lust after her on one's heart. It is the desire of the flesh; carnality--something that God hates.
The Bible says that covetousness is idolatry.
Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
--There are many Christian idolaters in this world.
--You can obey or disobey. Many disobey, wanting those things that God doesn't want them to have, committing adultery, and gluttony, adding to the sins of the flesh--pure carnality.

Name-calling is also carnality. It is of the flesh. It is not of God. Did the Holy Spirit guide you to write the above words?

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
--Were you under the flesh (carnal minded), or under the Spirit (Spiritually-minded) when you wrote those things?

I said:
"If disobeyed, the life lived is a life of carnality, a life according to the dictates and desires of the flesh."
Yes, it is very descriptive of a Christian who is not in submission to the Holy Spirit. Are you always in submission to the Holy Spirit? yes or no?

Like I previously said (and you apparently don't accept) I wanted to deal with specific context and avoid using up space that would force me to post on more than one page, as this might make me do. It makes the post too long.

Another "Spirit-led" post, Icon? Really?

A false inference. I never said there were 3.

1. I never bullied her; I answered her continual copy and paste jobs, and repetitive posts that never addressed the actual points made.
2. Nothing has escaped me. You force your pre-conceived ideas into many texts, so you also should be paying attention.

These are the general qualities of a Christian. It is no guarantee that a Christian is perfect. Paul is not saying that Christians are perfect, and never walk in the flesh. He doesn't say that.

This whole passage is directed to Christians. It is carried on from chapter 7 where Paul describes his struggle between his two natures. When the believer gives in to that sinful nature it will result in sin and death. Sin always does.
But he need not do that.
The Spirit of life has set him free from that (providing his is submitting to that Spirit of life). Are you always submitting to the Spirit of life, Icon? Or do you say things you regret saying which is NOT submitting to the Spirit of life?

There is no third law. I was trying to save space, and the pain of going through most of the chapter just for you. The chapter is addressed to Christians, is speaking of Christians--whether they are going to give into their flesh (sinful nature) or yield themselves to the Spirit of God, that Spirit that now dwells within them.

No, the law condemned. The law showed us our sinfulness. We cannot be saved through the Law. Therefore Christ fulfilled the Law that we might be saved.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

False accusation again. I never once said there are three men.
There is only ONE man--one man with a CHOICE: and that is to yield to his flesh or carnal desires, or to yield to the Spirit. Which do you do?
"To walk according to the flesh" or to walk "according to the Spirit."

 

con't. It was too long of a post Icon, as I predicted. Here is the rest of it.

No, these are believers who walk according to the flesh. They commit sin.
Tell me. Are you one of those who are guilty of this sin:
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
--Is there no truth in you?
Either that, or at times you walk according to the flesh. Which is it?

--Yes these are saved and consecrated believers, those who have yielded themselves to the Spirit of God, walking according to or submitted to the Holy Spirit. One individual with a choice to obey one of two natures.

Another false accusation. Was it of the flesh or of the Spirit?

One person: two natures. Depending upon which nature you submit to you will have different results which are spelled out for you here.

Again you show your ignorance of my position. There is only one person.
That person is a believer. He has two natures. One is his sin nature, and the other is spiritual from the Spirit which dwells within him. Look again at the end of chapter seven:
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--Paul speaks of himself. He is not a schizophrenic. He is one person with two natures: Spiritual and of the flesh. If he gives into the flesh he sins. With his mind he must deliberately give into the law of God or submit himself to the Spirit of God. And that is what he is explaining in chapter 8. The verse above is the last verse of chapter 7. There were no chapter divisions in the original.

And was this last part "of the flesh or of the Spirit?
I don't have false teaching. I patiently taught you what is the true teaching of this passage. In verse 9, Paul makes one very important clarification. Look at it carefully.

9And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you;
--Every believer has the Spirit dwelling within them. If they don't have the Spirit dwelling within, then they are not of God. He clarifies that.
Both saved and unsaved do those things that are of the flesh.
The lesson to be learned here.
There is no excuse for a saved person to act like an unsaved person.
However, it is sad that many do. Take heed.

 

Admittedly old eyes having trouble with the lengthy posts, but would you folks discuss the following in light of this discussion?

Once had a pastor tell us the unsaved person not yet prepared for salvation does not see his sin AS sin. Arminian or Calvinist, both agree God has some work to do on the soul before the person can even see their sin AS sin. Until then there can be no repentance. Who repents for sin when they honestly believe their actions are not sin?

And then after salvation, the issue of sin comes in again. Both Calvinists and Arminians have the Lordship Salvation camp which sometimes comes across as implying a sinless perfection. And both camps have a free grace side which also believes there will be at least some fruit in the life of the believer. Where they fight and fuss is trying to be fruit pickers as to how much fruit is necessary, or how much sin, before judging a person as saved or unsaved.

And then there are those he said were addressed in 1st John. These folks SAY they are believers, and are saved or born again. And yet, they still claim their sin IS NOT sin. You see this today with all manner of sins of the flesh. We have whole denominations "blessing" as "not sin" things God in His Word says ARE sin.

So is it possible this whole thing could be summed up as: 1. There is such a thing as sin. 2. God must expose it. 3. One must repent. 4. Once saved, we still have a sin nature to resist. 5. Sometimes all of us fail. 6. The one we can know is not saved is not the one who falls into sin, even if he falls often. It is the one who DENIES his sin, whatever it is, IS sin.

What think ye?