Featured How did the Apostle Paul get it so wrong?

Why are you laughing? You really don't understand what he is saying, neither have you refuted the last post where I quoted Gill. Denial is no defense. Gill does not agree with your "new Calvinism" view.

Here again:
If any verse would support your position it would be this one (SBM's favorite).

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Here is what Gill says:

The passage is directed to Christians and is about Christians.
The teaching here is about "the flesh," "the carnal nature."
Everyone has this sinful nature. It comes from Adam, and no one is excepted. Where regenerated or unregenerated we have this sin nature. It will not leave us even when we trust Christ, or when one is converted or when one is regenerated, or justified, or sanctified. It will not leave until one is glorified, that is, when the resurrection occurs or we get to heaven. We have it til death.
It is this flesh nature that does not please God, whether in the saved or unsaved. This is what Gill is saying. It is what he has been teaching (and what you have been missing) all the way through. The regenerated person has a flesh, carnal, sin nature. It is his old man that he must continually put off/crucify/deny/put to death/die daily/ etc. All these commands are in the Bible, but you ignore them all and think they are already accomplished. They aren't. If they were, we would be perfect and sinless. But that is not the reality: not according to Gill, Biblicist, or not according to the Bible, which is the most important authority of all.

 

Pardon the interruption, but briefly what is the ""new Calvinism" DHK?

 

A Puritan said, "If you are going to adopt the Puritan beliefs, then you must adopt the Puritan life."
New Calvinism is a basic reaffirmation of the Reformed movement minus the holiness of what the Puritans spoke of. They also have some doctrinal aberrations, but that would take up a thread in and of itself. I have posted some of it in the Calvinist forum. You can find it there.

 

No sir, you are the one who does not understand either Paul or Gill. Gill is teaching exactly what Paul is teaching in Romans 7:14-25; Gal. 5;16-17,25.

Paul explicitly states that there is a principle/law of corruption/sin indwelling the physical body whereby it wars against the soul through the "appetites of the flesh" which will not be removed from the redeemed until glorification of the body.

The reality of our present existence is that this indwelling principle/law of sin/corruption has not been removed from us - our bodies - and neither God or us are to view it has already removed, but it is the very thing we are commanded by God to mortify. If it were already mortified once and for all at regeneration, and if God regarded us as already saved as a WHOLE PERSON there would be no need for such commands as:

"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

Because according to your view it cannot reign at all because it is dead once and for all at the time of regeneration, and so such a command to saved persons is frivilous. So if anything is laughable it is your interpretation.


Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


Again, according to your interpretation these commands are a waste of breath because that occurred already once and for all and so saved people need not even worry about such a command because their WHOLE PERSON is already free yielding to unrighteousness and already yielded unto God.

You do not know the difference between perfect sanctification in spirit and sanctification by eternal purpose from progressive unfinished sanctification in soul and body in time and reality. They are not one and the same but your interpretation denies that.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 does not state a completed fact but a purposed goal that is not yet completed.

These truths are fundemental abc's and you don't grasp them.

If you are not dying "daily" to the law of sin operating in your flesh you are not growing as a Christian. Everytime you acknolwege you "can do nothing" without Christ and by faith depend upon the Spirit - filling - you are dying to self and acknolwedging that the law of sin is operating IN YOU and you are not DEAD to sin as a WHOLE PERSON but sin is very much alive IN YOU or else you would not need to confess inability to serve God and consciously submit to the Spirit!!!! The very fact you do so is acknowledgement that you are not past tense completed action saved as a WHOLE PERSON. If you deny this you are living in a dream world and in hypocrisy because every time you confess you can't do anything without Christ you are confessing that your WHOLE PERSON is not yet sanctifiied, saved from the presence, and power and consequences of sin.

 

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 1 John 4:2

Was that man above, in the flesh, carnal, sold under sin? Our sin not his own?

 

The phrase "in the flesh" has a literal and metaphorical application in Scripture and to confuse them is to be confused.

In regard to the incarnation the Son of God literally dwelt "in the flesh" and so to deny that he LITERALLY dwelt "in the flesh" is to deny the true DUAL nature of Jesus Christ.

In regard to the spiritual condition of the human spirit, the phrases "in the flesh" versus "in the spirit" are REPRESENTATIVE (metaphor) of two opposite spiritual conditions of man. The man who is born of the Spirit has had his "spirit" brought under the dominion of the Spirit. The person whose spirit is not born of God is still under the dominion of the fallen nature.

Now, this does not refer to any other aspect of the human nature other than the "spirit" of man. It does not apply to the human body because the human body has not been born of the Spirit. The human body is brought under the dominion of the Spirit presently, only as when we daily crucify the law of sin operating in the body through submitting the body to the regenerated spirit in man under the indwelling power of the Spirit - resulting in using the body to glorify God. So dominion of the spirit over the human body only occurs NOW by the power of the indwelling Spirit being "put on" in our soul whereby we crucify the appetites of the flesh by manifesting the fruit of the Spirit in our life. In the resurrection the law of sin will be removed and then the body will be permenantly brought under the dominion of the Spirit - thus a "spiritual" body.

The human "soul" has not been born of God, but the appetities of the flesh wage war against the soul. Only as the "soul" PUTS ON the "new man" (born again spirit) by the power of the Spirit can the "soul" be brought under the dominion of the Spirit. So bringing the soul under the dominion of the Spirit requires INDWELLING of the Spirit in our renewed spirit. That is by being "filled" by the Spirit. When you are not "filled" by the Spirit the soul is operating AFTER the flesh or according to the law of sin that operates in our literal body.

The lost man operates under the dominion of the law of indwelling sin in spirit, soul and body or in an unregenerate condition apart from the Spirit of God and therefore is "in the flesh" which is a metaphor that represents unregenerate man's spiritual condition completely under sin expressed by through our physical body (words, actions).

 

I made my other post account of things you had said in this post without quoting this post. I put in bold that above and here:

The very fact you do so is acknowledgement that you are not past tense completed action saved as a WHOLE PERSON.

Here is what I do not understand. I assume you are saying that the WHOLE PERSON isn't currently saved, If so, I also agree. However, is the following an example from scripture showing in time when the WHOLE PERSON shall be saved?

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Cor 15:50,51

Is that not when the WHOLE PERSON inherits the kingdom of God?

Would not the WHOLE PERSON need to be born again to see and or enter the kingdom of God? Except, a man, a certain one...

Must one, who has been begotten/conceived by the Spirit, die daily, must one mortify the lust of the flesh, avoiding being miscarried, aborted, before birth as a WHOLE PERSON?

 

Please read with comprehension. Look at the bolded part.
Regenerated grace does not remove it (the old sinful nature) from them.
Comprenez-vous?

This is speaking of the saved--straying from him.

Note again the bolded part.
The work of the Spirit has already begun in them...their minds and their conversations are spiritual...though there may be a great deal of carnality in their hearts, thoughts, words, etc...
That describes THE CARNAL CHRISTIAN.

You seemed to have missed this part. At leas I didn't see it.
Describing "the elect of God" he describes them as Carnal Christians.

 

Let's just consider the Scriptures Icon:

First in chapter six of Romans
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--The word “reckon” means: “count, reason, think on.”
It requires an act of the mind. It is something that you must do. It is active, not passive.
The word “reckon” is a verb which is an imperative, a command to be carried out.
We are not dead, we, every day of our lives, must reason or think ourselves to be dead unto sin.

Then in chapter seven Paul describes the great struggle of this principle of sin, the sin nature that is within him. It is a struggle. The things he does he does not want to do. The things he doesn’t want to do, those are the things he does. It is an on-going struggle between the Spirit and the flesh.

He admits:
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

He comes to the end of his struggle and cries out in despair:
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
--He needs deliverance from the flesh.

The answer comes from the next verse:
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
If he yields his mind to the Holy Spirit he will serve the law of God. The mind must be yielded. It must also be considered dead to sin. This is something that is not automatic, or positional, but that must be actively done every day even on a minute by minute basis as 2Cor.10:3-5 would suggest.
--With the mind one overcomes the desires of the flesh, that is the flesh nature.

Then we come to chapter eight.
This chapter deals with the two natures of the believer, even as Paul testified of in chapter seven:
It is the flesh that wars against the Spirit: the flesh nature of the believer warring against his spiritual nature.

In verse one—there is no condemnation to the believer. Even if one gives into the flesh he will not lose his salvation. The general characteristics of a believer is one who walks after the Spirit but not of the flesh. These obviously are not absolutes. If they were we would all be sinless and many of the warnings and commands in the Bible totally irrelevant. For example, why would Paul write:
“Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,” if we are already dead unto sin?? It doesn’t make sense. The command would be redundant, a useless command. Why give a command to do something that is already accomplished?

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
--We have both freedom and victory in Christ. Under the law there was no freedom; no victory. The law brought failure not salvation.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
--Christ brought would the law could not bring, and that is salvation. He paid the price that the law could never pay.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Context is key here. Paul is writing to believers. He includes himself here. The personal pronoun we is very important. It means “believers + Paul (and those with him). It does not include unbelievers. Thus, WE (believers) who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, we are the ones that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled. The righteousness of the law is not fulfilled in the flesh, in those things that are carnal, in the desires of the flesh; neither in keeping the law, which is the main point here considering the context. The desire of the Judaizers was to keep the law.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
--The verse is straight forward. Either you walk according to the flesh or according to the Spirit. Paul includes himself (vs.4). It is written to believers. He is speaking of the two natures of man.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
--If you keep living according to the desires of your flesh your life will end in the same way that Adam’s life did—death—both spiritually and physical, but primarily spiritually as sin separates us from God.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
--This is the same teaching as James 4:4 and 1John 2:15,16. God hates worldliness which is a product of the carnal Christian. He does not subject his mind to the law of God (Rom.7:25), but rather to the desires of the flesh. It is his choice, even as a Christian.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
This truth is self-evident. It is evident in other areas of our lives as well:
Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
--This is the same basic teaching but applicable to one’s prayer life.

These are commands. They are imperatives that we must do, and do daily:
Put off the old man; put on the new man.
Die daily.
Deny yourself. Take up your cross daily.
Crucify yourself.
Reckon yourself to be dead to sin.

These are commands to be carried out on a daily basis. They are not completed actions.
Sanctification is progressive not completed. These commands are to be obeyed because they help us in our sanctification, in growing in Christ, in living a holy life, in “putting to death the old man.”

This is what needs to be considered.

 

Ok, God deals with us as a WHOLE person instead of addressing one part of us when he speaks to us, but that does not mean our WHOLE Person is born again. Our body has not been born again. Our "soul" (affections, will, intellect) has not been born again. Only the "spirit" has been born again (Jn. 3:6). I take it you don't believe in a threefold salvation (past, present future tense) for a threefold being (spirit = past; soul/life = present; body=future)?

I guess this is where we differ then. You don't believe that Romans 7:14-25 refers to the regenerate person. However, I think if you objectively consider this passage that the term "flesh" throughout this passage refers to the PHYSICAL body which has not yet been redeemed from the PRESENCE of sin and where the law of indwelling sin resides or the principle of corruption/death.

1. v. 14 "carnal" = "fleshly"
2. v. 18 "my flesh"
3. v. 23 "my members"
4. v. 24 "the body of this death"

Therefore, verse 14 is simply defined by vv. 15-25 showing that the physical human body of the saint is not yet been glorified, and the presence of indwelling sin, the principle of corruption, the law of sin still resides in the physical literal flesh and from this vantage point it wars "against the soul".

The present tense throughout this passage demands this from the past tense in Romans 7:6-13.

Only the born again man can "delight in the law of God" - Rom. 7;22/8:7

Only the born again man has an "inward man" that delights in God's law

Only the born again man has a "law of my mind" that is inclined to do good.

Only the born again man "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God"; - Rom. 7:25

NOW CAREFULLY CONSIDER THIS:

You have quoted Romans 6 where Paul addresses what you admit to be a born again person and where he says

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

You have admitted that believers do yeild to sin and allow sin to reign through their members as instruments of unrighteousness.

NOW, WHAT IN THE HUMAN NATURE allows that to occur? The physical body certainly cannot make decisions like that? The only aspect of the human nature that can either RESIST or YIELD is the soul of man (intellect, will, affections). Hence, this proves that the saved man can be of TWO DIFFERENT MINDSETS, one that RESISTS sin and does not allow "your member as instruments of unrighteousness OR a MINDSET that does yeild and allows your members to be instruments of unrighteousness (thus sin is committed). What would you call the MINDSET from which such sin is not merely allowed but DETERMINED?? The Greek term translated "mind" in Romans 8:7 is more properly understood as "MINDSET".

However, what God has regenerated is CREATED in "righteousness and true holiness" (Col. 3:10; Eph. 4:24). There is no such thing as "true holiness" that can sin or can have the ability to sin. That is why Paul consistently attributes sin by the regenerated man not to the "inward man who delights in the law of God" but to the power of indwelling sin that can overcome the MINDSET to do righteousness WHEN THAT MINDSET IS NOT EMPOWERED BY THE INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT. God is "true holiness" and he cannot sin. The human spirit is what is born of God (Jn. 3:6) not the soul of man (intellect, affections, will).

NOW look carefully at this next verse:

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

What is the "law in my members" called by Paul in this passage? The law of sin

What does this "law" war against? Answer: "the law of my mind" - which means the "law of my mind" is antithetical to the "law of sin."

What is the consequences of this war against the "law of my mind" who resists the "law of sin" WITHOUT THE POWER OF THE INDWELLING SPIRIT???

"bringing me into captivity" is the answer.

But a lost person is already a captive of the law of sin, so this cannot refer to a lost person. However, it is this warring that brings "the law of my mind" (law of God - v. 22) into captivity to the law of sin thus producing a MINDSET for sin which is then executed through the flesh.

I wish I could help you see this, but only God can help you see the truth. However, before you simply write off what I said above, try to explain how the "mind" of a saved person can be changed into an administrative state of condoning and executing sin through the body IN CONNECTION WITH Romans 7:14-25 and "with the mind, I myself serve the Law of God"? How can a lost man have a "mind" that wars against the law of sin and how can a lost man "delight in the law of God" and distinguish himself "I" from the "inward man" that delights in that Law, thus BOTH "I" and "inward man" sharing the same delight unless the "I" represents the soul of man and "inward man" represents the regenerated spirit of man "created in righteousness and true holiness" where the law of God is inscribed at new birth (2 Cor.3:3). How can that "I" who serves God "with my mind" be overcome by indwelling sin in "my flesh" so that it will serve the law of sin instead of God???? Explain how their could be a war within the unregenerated man between two different laws (Law of God and law of sin) and yet no such conflict resides within saved persons but who end up with a MIND to sin????