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Featured Is Cal/Non-Cal important enough to divide?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 12strings, Feb 24, 2012.

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  1. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    The PB's I know are certainly NOT universalists....this must be some weird offshoot. Ask Kyred if he is a universalist when you see him & let me know what he tells you.
     
    #101 Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 25, 2012
  2. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Kyredneck is well acquainted with these PB Universalist 'No-Heller' brothers:
     
    #102 Jerome, Feb 25, 2012
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps he knows them, but they dont represent his or traditional PB Theology.
     
    #103 Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 25, 2012
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Calvinists believe in conditional salvation – “When, on man’s side, he places the only way of receiving salvation in faith alone, he rejects all other means on which men are accustomed to rely.” (Calvin) (God draws the elect unto himself, otherwise man is not capable of seeking God).

    Arminians believe that only the elect are saved. - “That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ. ” (Art 1) (The elect are those who will believe, out of their own will, known by God from eternity past).

    I think you mean conditional election.
     
    #104 JonC, Feb 25, 2012
  5. mandym

    mandym New Member

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    That's not right
     
    #105 mandym, Feb 25, 2012
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I may be wrong. Which part is not right?
     
    #106 JonC, Feb 25, 2012
  7. mandym

    mandym New Member

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    Calvinists believe only the elect are saved
     
    #107 mandym, Feb 25, 2012
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, Calvinists believe only the elect are saved. But salvation is conditioned by faith. Salvation is conditioned by faith and man cannot obtain that faith apart from God. This faith is God’s grace. But there is none who are saved that do not believe. Believing is still a condition of salvation.

    Calvinism just holds that God meets this condition because man cannot.

    The difference between Calvinism and Arminianism stems from differences in election – not conditional/unconditional salvation (both parties think you have to believe in Christ to be saved).

    (I did not mean to imply that Calvinists don't believe that only the elect are saved, only that Arminians believe this as well - although they disagree on that election).
     
    #108 JonC, Feb 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2012
  9. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    Arminians believe that every man has the free will to accept or reject salvation.

    But they also believe that their salvation is conditional in that they can lose it. They have to mantain a christian life to remain saved. They believe that once saved that they have to continually "earn" their right to keep their salvation, or they will lose it.

    What we would call "backsliden" they would call "lost" and in need of getting saved again.

    So, no, I meant conditional salvation, not election.

    John
     
    #109 seekingthetruth, Feb 25, 2012
  10. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    I'm sorry this post is way too reasonable to be allowed into this discussion...:tongue3:
     
    #110 12strings, Feb 25, 2012
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Which Calvinist are you referring to?
     
    #111 Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 25, 2012
  12. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    In other words, they believe that we can become saved then lost, saved then lost, saved then lost according to how they are living their lives.

    John
     
    #112 seekingthetruth, Feb 25, 2012
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Then Christ is a lier when he said "It Is Finished"
     
    #113 Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 25, 2012
  14. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    On this, you and I can agree on.:applause::thumbsup:

    Once a person is saved, nothing can break the seal of the HS.

    This is my favorite Bible passage:


    Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
    Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
    Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
    Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Who indeed?
    John
     
    #114 seekingthetruth, Feb 25, 2012
  15. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    -If you go to this website - http://evangelicalarminians.org/Are_You_an_Arminian_and_Dont_Even_Know_It - which is one of the best at showing what classical Arminians believe, you will see that though hardly any SBCers call themselves Arminians, Many, probably over half, believe nearly the same things. Rejection of eternal security is not a hard-and-fast tenet of Arminianism. Arminius himself was undecided on the subject.

    In addition, the recent Book, "Whosoever Will" (a collaboration of some SBC leaders in critique of Calvinism) lays forth what is, with few exceptions, Basic Arminian beliefs...even though none of the writers would call themselves Arminians based on their belief in eternal security, and their belief that Armininans don't.

    If you don't like the word, that is fine; but as far as similarity of beliefs, many sbc people are "arminianistic"
     
    #115 12strings, Feb 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2012
  16. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    I agree that SBC doctrine does mostly line up with Arminianism on most points, election, free will, ect.

    But the point that really matters, eternal security, is the one that really seperates true Arminians from most SBC churches.

    Just like election is the cornerstone of DoG, conditional salvation is the cornerstone of Arminianism, which leaves most SBC churches out.

    John
     
    #116 seekingthetruth, Feb 25, 2012
  17. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland Active Member

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    God looks ridiculous when people reject life? No, he looks righteous when they inherit eternal damnation for their willful rejection of almighty God.
     
    #117 jonathan.borland, Feb 25, 2012
  18. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Arminian or General Baptists don't believe that.
     
    #118 Michael Wrenn, Feb 25, 2012
  19. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    I don't know the answer to that, but I will say I have a great deal of respect for Thinkingstuff.
     
    #119 quantumfaith, Feb 25, 2012
  20. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Seeking the truth, perhaps I am misunderstanding, but I "think" you may be "confusing" a couple of things. Arminianism has not "official" stand on "perserverance", Arminius himself was ambivalent about the issue. It is true, Methodism largely adheres to the ability to walk away (lose) ones salvation, but Arminianism does not officially endorse such a position. Accept my apologies if I am misdunderstanding your point or position.
     
    #120 quantumfaith, Feb 25, 2012
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