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Featured Justified before saved !

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Sep 15, 2012.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Again, the plain context is justification BY FAITH from beginning to end repeated over and over again.

    The provision for justification is redemption by Christ. The basis for justification by "faith" is the free grace of God as faith is "by grace" (4:3-5; 16).

    Abraham is the example given for Romans 4 and the time of Abraham's justification was not before the world began, not on the cross but the precise point of time "WHEN" he was justified was "IN CIRCUMCISION" and he was justified by "faith" (Rom. 4:6-10).

    That is God's word and you are rejecting it and refusing what it clearly and explicitly says because of your false doctrines.
     
    #61 The Biblicist, Oct 5, 2012
  2. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    You reject the Truth that is in the context. Justification by the Grace of God through the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Rom 3:24

    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
     
    #62 savedbymercy, Oct 5, 2012
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    That is a lie! I do accept the truth of Romans 3:24 BUT as interpreted by Paul in Romans 3:25-5:2. You do not accept Paul's explanation of that text but jerk it out of context and provide your own explanation of it that is CONTRARY to the explanation given by Paul in Romans 3:24-5:2.
     
    #63 The Biblicist, Oct 6, 2012
  4. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    No its not. I have presented a Truth out of the context of Rom 3, the Truth is that the Elect of God are Justified before God by His Grace through the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus. I do not have to explain every other verse to show forth the Truth of that
    verse, that is non sense. Thats not debating, thats just making me to explain the whole chapter. I am not going to do that, the problem is with you, you clearly reject a Truth in the context of that chapter. Now if you are going to prove it wrong, then you do it. I do not need to exegete the whole chapter to highligt that one Truth of many within !

    So, what I have stated so far in Rom 3:24 has remained unrefuted, just denied !
     
    #64 savedbymercy, Oct 6, 2012
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    No one is denying the truth of verse 24 but what is being denied is HOW God applies that truth to the elect.

    Justification is by grace. Redemption is the propitiation by Christ's blood. However, apart from DESIGN and APPLICATION it is worthless.

    God's PURPOSE defines its design but the Holy Spirit's work defines its APPLICATION. You have a botched upon covenant of grace that attempts to make total salvation stand and fall merely upon one aspect of that covenant when in fact all three aspects are interrelated and inseparable from each other and any attempt to isolate one from the other is heresy and that is precisely what you are advocating.

    Anyone capable of reading English can see Paul's consistent and repeated application immediately stated in verses 25-5:2 and it is justification "BY FAITH."
     
    #65 The Biblicist, Oct 10, 2012
  6. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Yes you do !

    That is not the issue here. The issue here is the Elect being Justified before God by the Merits of Christ before they are saved experientially.

    The Elect are Justified, declared not Guilty, free from sin [its punishment] Soley by the Grace of God, through the redemption in Christ's Blood , even while they are in and of themselves enemies and unconverted, dead in sin !

    That is what you deny, and that is what Rom 3:24 teaches as well as Rom 5:10 !

    The elect does not have it applied to them by the Spirit until a later time in their life !
     
    #66 savedbymercy, Oct 10, 2012
  7. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Redeemed Past Tense !



    Lk 1:67-68

    67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

    68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

    Zacharias was looking to the Gospel Promise of God redeeming His People Israel as David foretold Ps 130:8

    And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

    Now by the Spirit, Zach blessed God for having redeemed Israel from his iniquities at the sight of Christ !

    The word redeemed here is the greek word lytrōsis and it means:

    a ransoming, redemption

    2) deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin

    Its also in the aorist tense indicative mood which normally means simple past.

    However, the redemption here was not actually confirmed until the Death of Christ and the writer of Hebrews speaks of it here Heb 9:12

    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    Though Christ had not yet shed His own Blood when Zacharias made the statement by the Holy Ghost, it was fulfilled in the Mind and Purpose of God whom it was that inspired Zach to speak the Words ! God can speak as so Rom 4:17

    17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

    God's Purposes that find fulfillment in time for creatures of time, is not the same as He that is Eternal and sees all things ,past, present and future, as a Eternal Present !

    The Redemption of God's People was always a fulfilled fact in the Purpose and Mind of God !
     
    #67 savedbymercy, Oct 10, 2012
  8. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    More on Justification from Eternity !

    There is a Justification in the mind of the believer which doth occur in time, and is what the scripture calls Justified by Faith Rom 5:1 , but there is another Justification which is before time and even from eternity Ps 103:17, and that is the Elects Justification in the Mind of God ! Eternal Justification rests upon what is an Eternal Act in God's Mind and not what is a revealed fact of the Mind of God in the mind of the Justified ones ! The Elect are Justified by God from Eternity by the Eternal act of the Decree of God, and by the Eternal Arrangement of the Everlasting Covenant between the Father and the Son and The Spirit Witnessed, these are God's Acts; That is His Decree's are His Acts of Old Pd 93:2

    Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

    His entering Covenant with His Son is His acts; and all acts of His are foundational in His Being as the Eternal God, where time as we know it,past , present and future, are all One in His Mind !
     
    #68 savedbymercy, Oct 13, 2012
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Look at the Greek text. The term "redeemed" is not a verb and has no tense. Rather it is the object of the verb. Literally it reads "he made a ransom" and refers to the incarnation "hath visited us". The idea is that the visitation or incarnation was the provision of a ramson as promised by God. This text does not teach that Zacharias believed a ransom had already been provided BEFORE the visitation but was provided IN the visitation as both aorist tense verbs show simeltaneous actions.
     
    #69 The Biblicist, Oct 14, 2012
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    yes, and purpose is not equal to fulfillment - "I have purposed it, I WILL do it" - Isa. 46:10. God regards it AS completed but that does not mean it IS completed as purpose is worthless without fulfillment.
     
    #70 The Biblicist, Oct 14, 2012
  11. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

    28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

    30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

    31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    MAYBE Paul is claiming that Jews are justified by observing the 613 statements BUT gentiles are justified by faith (believing).
     
    #71 billwald, Oct 14, 2012
  12. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Yes it does. In the greek it would read He has performed redemption

    The word performed in the greek text Poieo is in the aorist indicative.

    In fact the NASB reads:

    “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,
    For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,

    So what I stated earlier stands, and it just goes to show, all you wanna do is be a show off with the greek !
     
    #72 savedbymercy, Oct 14, 2012
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    That is absolute nonsense! The Apostle Paul writing in Ephesians 2:1-5 [NASB] tells us:

    1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
    2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
    3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
    4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
    5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

    Paul states the elect were dead in trespasses and sins and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest until God made us alive, saved us!
     
    #73 OldRegular, Oct 14, 2012
  14. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    old reg

    The Truth of the Gospel, the Work of Christ is nonsense to many, to include you I see !
     
    #74 savedbymercy, Oct 15, 2012
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    No, he can simply read and correctly intepret the scriptures while you are spiritual blind and confused lacking discernment to see the obvious.

    Anyone who claims purpose = fulfilment is deceived.

    Anyone who claims provision = application is deceived

    You jerk texts out of context in order to support your absolute and total false doctrine of eternal justification.
     
    #75 The Biblicist, Oct 15, 2012
  16. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Slain from the foundation of the World !
    Rev 13:8

    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Many false teachers try there best to destroy the Truth of this verse that John was inspired to write, and that is that Christ the Lamb was actually slain from the foundation of the World !

    Yes, I said actually which means actual or existing fact !

    He was actually slain from the foundation of the World by God's Decree and Purpose, which makes it an Actual Existing Fact in the Mind of God. John here is revealing to us the Mind of God on this matter !

    And with that, this verse speaks to the Truthfulness of the Eternal Justification of all God's Elect in His Mind, Purpose and Decree from the foundation of the World, Yes for all them that Christ did come and die for in time, they were already Justified by the Purpose of God before Time Began. This is so much so, that in the Purpose, Decree, and Mind of God they were already Saved 2 Tim 1:9

    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    Or it can read "Who hath saved or Justified us according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began"

    Paul states the same here Titus 3:7

    7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    That is, Freely Justified by that Grace which was Given Us in Christ Jesus before the World Began !

    This is a Gospel Truth, for Paul Just stated in Vs 8 2 Tim 1:8-10

    8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;


    Which Gospel Truth He Proclaims in Vs 9

    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    The Gospel is that Testimony of that Eternal Grace Given in Christ, which we are Justified by, before the World began.

    Paul said the same also here Acts 20:24

    24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

    This Testimony of the Gospel of the Grace of God refers to 2 Tim 1:8-9 which enlightens of the Church's Eternal Justification by the Grace of God , premised on the Covenant Engagement of Christ being Slain for their Sins !

    And to omit this Truth of the Gospel of the Grace of God is to consequently Preach No Gospel. Yes, Eternal Justification of the Church is a GOSPEL TRUTH, and I just proved it with scripture !
     
    #76 savedbymercy, Oct 15, 2012
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Pure undefiled hogwash! He is referring to the SYMBOLISM found in the sacrifice of a lamb by God in Genesis 3 and by Abel in Genesis 4. He is saying the same thing as did John the Baptist - "Behold the lamb of God" as the fulfilment of the sacrificial system of the Old Testament which was instituted by God "FROM" (not before) the foundation of the world.
     
    #77 The Biblicist, Oct 15, 2012
  18. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Thats what you call the Gospel of God's Grace !
     
    #78 savedbymercy, Oct 15, 2012
  19. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    "
    Thats a Lie, He was ordained before the foundation of the World 1 Pet 1:20

    20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


    He was made known from the foundation of the World, but He was appointed[set up] and made Surety by Covenant engagment before the Foundation !

    When He Covenanted with His Father from Everlasting Covenant Engagement to Shed His Blood Heb 13:20

    20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

    When He Covenanted with His Son, He was the lamb Slain from the foundation of the World.

    If you do not understand this and embrace this, you do not embrace the Gospel of God's Grace, as simple as that !
     
    #79 savedbymercy, Oct 15, 2012
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    No! That is what I call YOUR INTERPRETATION of the gospel of Grace!
     
    #80 The Biblicist, Oct 15, 2012
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