Featured Must we be calvinists?

The Calvinist have convinced me that what they claim to believe is not good doctrine. They have convinced me that it is very bad doctrine.

What would I replace it with? To give oneself totally to Christ. To study Christ and his life, the way he interacted with people, the way he treated people, the way he emphasized the way we are to love and care for each other and then to do exactly that to the best of our ability in our own lives. We are to become as Christ-like as we possibly can. Jesus did not preach doctrine as such, he preached a life and a lifestyle.

If that which I have just said be doctrine, then that is my doctrine.

 

Is that your doctrine to become a Christian, or your doctrine after becoming a Christian? Just trying to understand clearly.

 

That is my doctrine of living a Christian life. As I have said in other posts, show me your works and I will show you your faith. Please do not confuse this statement with being saved by works. That is not what I am saying. But if a person's "faith" does not affect how they live their life then have doubts concerning and am not sure they have real faith.

As I believe each person is unique I believe that God deals with each person uniquely and each person comes to a living faith in the unique say God calls them.

 

Don't want to get too far off the point of the OP but doctrine is more important than love. If it wasn't, Jesus wouldn't have been so hard on the Pharisees. I have met many "loving" people who know nothing of Christ's doctrine.

Paul had no problem being "unloving" when the Gospel was being perverted. Neither did James or Jude. And neither should we.

 

I do not believe Christ was as upset over their doctrine ... but in the way they misused religion for their own gain and glory ... and in how they did not love and help others. Christ was anti-legalism and anti those who refused to love and help their fellow man. An example is the parable of the Good Samaritan.

Paul was not Christ.

 

I believe that works are important after saving faith as well. We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. It is one of the proofs of true conversion. Another is that the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the child of God. Another is that we love the brethren. Can both sides in the Calvinism debate love each other? That seems to be the question.

 

Believing in and teaching good doctrine, even fiercely, does not preclude one from being a "Good Samaritan".

But I'll leave it there. Too far off the OP and deserves a thread of it's own. God bless.

 

I see no reason why they cannot love each other. Neither theological belief is required for salvation in my humble opinion.

 

I believe they can. Being a believer in the DOG is not the first thing that I talk about when I meet other believers. I have many friends on both sides of the issue. It's not something I preach or teach on incessantly.

I think that faceless posting here on the BB tends to remove the humanity from the discussion.

 

Doesn't matter to me as long as they're saved. I don't see the word as having perjorative connotations. Why do Calvinists shy away from the label? Do Lutherans feel queasy being called Lutherans?

I think so. That is the linchpin of Calvinist theology.

 

I have been under the impression that the "DOG" is a synonym for T.U.L.I.P.

Can you bring some clarity to this issue?

 

No. :laugh:

Seriously, "Calvinists", "DOG", and "Arminians" are as varied as their heights, weights, hair color and favorite beverages.

I prefer DOG to Calvinist due to the charged nature of using the name.

 

So somewhat similar to the strategy of political liberals calling themselves progressives because they don't like the negative connotations attached to the word "liberal".

 

Yes, and some Calvinists, er, doctrine of grace adherents intentionally obfuscate their theology so as not to be too overt about limited atonement and/or unconditional election.

I ran into this at the church I had been attending for several years when the pastor took another position in another state and the church was interviewing pastor candidates. There was an open Q&A session where the candidate was very evasive answering questions regarding TULIP. I even asked him point blank:

Me: "What, if any, responsibility does the individual have in salvation? Can a person know that they are saved?"

Candidate: "You know the Puritans simply assumed that it was up to God to save them. They believed that they wouldn't know if they were truly saved until they died."

It didn't take a seminary professor to deduce his true stance, one merely had to look at his list of favorite preachers and theologians--Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, John Piper, etc.

He was hired and shortly thereafter the choir was gone, the building was "modernized", Sunday night worship was dropped, relatives were hired into ministry positions, the name Baptist was dropped from the church name (though he said he would never do that at the Q&A session), the beautiful pipe organ was no longer heard, contemporary music was the only type of music heard complete with barefoot band members. I left within months.

BTW, 12Strings, I have nothing against contemporary worship music, but the way it was executed here was offensive to me.

 

Perhaps, but in my case I do not link my beliefs to Calvin but to the Scriptures. John Calvin does not speak for me on the issue, I speak for myself.

 

I can almost guarantee you that is NOT the stance of most DOG adherents. I believe that you most assuredly CAN know that you are saved.

 

That was my knowledge of it as well. But notice how he didn't tell me anything about what he believed, instead he deferred to the Puritans.

 

Is it possible to be a member of the DOG club if you replace the "L" in TULIP with "U/A" or "not sure"

 

This is one of the key tactics recommended by the 'Founders' Calvinist Southern Baptist guys in their 'Quiet Revolution' guide to turning a Baptist church Reformed:

http://www.founders.org/library/quiet/quiet4.html

A Quiet Revolution
Chapter Four
Walking Without Slipping:
Instructions for Local Church Reformation

Practical Suggestion #8 for Local Church Reformation:

"Avoid terms such as Calvinism, reformed, doctrines of grace, particular redemption, etc."