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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by IAMWEAK_2007, Jun 1, 2014.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
    52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.


    All these parables are given to help the disciples understand why the MAJORITY OF PROFESSING PEOPLE OF GOD both then and progressivly in the future will reject the Word of God.

    1. It is a heart problem - 3 manifestations of a false professors heart
    2. It is a counterfit problem - tares - look alikes
    3. It is a size problem
    a. Tares increase the visible appearance
    b. Leaven increases the visible appearance of dough
    c. seed versus plant demonstrates size is deceptive
    4. It is a demonic problem

    The true kingdom believers are one out of four hearts among professing kingdom of God.

    The true believers are "hid" among the tares, trees with fowls

    The true kingdom is "hid" like a treasure in the field

    5. Only judgement day will manifestly separate the three hearts from the fourth, the tares from the wheat, and bad from good fishes. In the mean time, those instructed in these parables will know the manifest signs of false professors and not be fooled.


    When the child of God is instructed in these things he will be like a "scribe" and a "householder." He will be instructed in the manifest evidences of false professors. He will be always ready as the householder to meet such problems and not be intimidated by the majority assessments of God's word and rejection of the truth.


    In the mean time when previous professing children of God repudiate Christ and Christianity it is not because they were saved and then lost but a clear manifestation they were never saved in the first place:

    1 Jn. 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    Indeed, the whole first epistle of John is a contrast between false and true professors and how to know the evidences of a true child of God.
     
    #81 The Biblicist, Jun 8, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 8, 2014
  2. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    It's a plain fact that you're reading your doctrine into the text of the parable of the sower.
    The plain fact is that all through Matthew, Jesus was teaching His disciples that there will be believers in heaven who have an inheritance, and believers in heaven who have no inheritance

    He said that the meek shall INHERIT the earth (Matthew 5:5)


    And this inheritance is called a reward. See Colossians 3:23-24, where Paul exhorts the believers to do their work heartily for the Lord, knowing that they will receive the inheritance as a reward. Notice in Genesis 15:1 when God promised Abraham an inheritance, He said, "Your REWARD shall be great"

    See also Matthew 5:11-12, where Jesus said “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

    Compare this to Matthew 10:16-22, where Jesus said:
    “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.
    But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues;
    and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
    But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say.
    For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
    “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
    You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

    And what is this "saved" that Jesus promised to those who endure to the end?

    2Timothy 2:12
    If we endure, we will also reign with Him

    But there is another half of this verse which resonates between the two chapters:

    If we deny Him, He also will deny us (2Tim 2:12)

    Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
    But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven (Matthew 10:32-33)

    And Jesus kept talking about this reward of the inheritance

    “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
    And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
    He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it. (Matthew 10:37-39)

    Which He also reiterated in Matthew 19:27-30:

    Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?”
    And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
    And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.
    But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.

    And these words to the apostles about inheriting eternal life came on the heels of the rich young ruler, who asked "What shall I do to INHERIT eternal life?"


    All through Matthew, Jesus is speaking of the REWARD of the INHERITANCE, to those who have left all, picked up their cross, confessed Him, and endured to the end.


    And as for 1John, you have missed the mark there, too. Chapter 2 says "If we say we KNOW Him..."

    Paul said in Philippians 3:10 "I want to KNOW Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings.

    Knowing Him has to do with FELLOWSHIP, as is stated in 1John 1:6-7
    If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
    but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

    That's why Paul wrote, in Philippians 2:29 "For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake"

    And he also wrote in Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.


    The plain fact is that your doctrinal influence has caused you to miss the most important aspect of the gospel, our inheritance. And it is to those who suffer with Him, per Romans 8:17

    And that's a shame, for someone holding a Th.M. should be more studied in the scriptures, and less in philosophical doctrines. And you even write books. Good grief

    You ought to be ashamed of yourself
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Is that why you provide absolutely no response to the contextual evidence I placed right in front of your face? The readers can judge who is really reading their doctrine into the text and who is exegeting the text faithfully. The fact that you had no response to even one of the five facts is pretty revealing! Try responding to the specifics of the five facts I placed before you.
     
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You make the point very well.
    There are hundreds, if not thousands, of nominal Christians--those who have professed the name of Jesus but do not "know him." The whole vine looks like a dead lifeless stick.
    IOW, you can't tell the genuine from the fake. Satan is very good at counterfeiting. And yet eventually those that are actually dead will be cut off. They will fall off, be cut off, end up in the fire and be burned. They are useless, good for nothing, akin to filthy rags. They have no fruit and never will have. The Lord has no need of them. And in the end He will say: "I never knew you, depart from me."
     
  5. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    I didn't respond to your five so-called facts because you used about 2,000 words to say nothing. And the way you jumble your thoughts together almost sounds like English is a second language for you. Hard to justify a 4,000 word response to useless jargon

    I've mentioned this to you before. You need to write in a fashion that actually makes sense, and use fewer words. You don't impress anyone with a code that has to be deciphered, and I don't know of anyone who honestly wants to pore through what you've written to get to the bottom of what you're actually trying to say.

    Maybe you should do a poll to see how many people here can actually understand what you write on the first breeze through.

    **Insult removed**

    Here's what I got from your nonsense:

    You accused me of ignoring the context, and this was about the only thing I plainly understood from you. So this was the thrust of my post. And it took about 800 words just to refute this charge. If you can't see the context of the entire gospel, then what's the use in going further?

    You went off into a different parable that had a different application, and kept insisting that the hard, impenetrable path was "soil".

    When you say that the word was sown into his heart, you didn't explain what you think the heart is. It has more than one meaning. And to be sure, if "heart" is the same as when Philip said to the Ethiopian Eunuch "If you believe with all your heart", then you would need to adopt the view that even the ones signified by the path would have been saved.

    Then you jumped over to 1John and tried to insist on pressing an application which is foreign to what is written
     
    #85 JamesL, Jun 8, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 9, 2014
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    It would be in error to take analogies and try to apply every detail of it to real life.
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It's a plain fact that you're reading your doctrine into the text of the parable of the sower.
    The plain fact is that all through Matthew, Jesus was teaching His disciples that there will be believers in heaven who have an inheritance, and believers in heaven who have no inheritance

    He said that the meek shall INHERIT the earth (Matthew 5:5)[/quote]
    You are confusing contexts (a point Biblicist made).
    The Sermon on the Mount (pre-cross) is in the context of the Kingdom. The "earth" is a reference to the "Kingdom," and his audience was Jews.
    Study the epistles. Every believer has an inheritance. If you don't have an inheritance, you are not saved. It is given to us at salvation. (We are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ). The full inheritance will be realized at our resurrection. Check Rom.8:23
    Study the subject of "adoption." At salvation we are also adopted as mature sons. The "adopted son" is guaranteed an inheritance. He can't lose it. If you don't have it, you are not saved.
    Another quote from the Sermon on the Mount. Context: the Kingdom.
    He was sending his disciples out as missionaries. They would be persecuted--physically. Endurance would be needed. It is speaking about physical endurance not spiritual salvation. You are ignoring context.
    That is the immediate context.
    Some also apply this to the Great Tribulation. Even then it will be a physical deliverance, and not spiritual. Hatred and death are not speaking of spiritual salvation.
    Deliverance from persecution; being physically alive, saved from death by enduring.
    The context of a pastoral epistle is vastly different than the history of the life of Christ given in a gospel! :rolleyes:

    Context:
    2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
    12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
    13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
    --First note how Paul puts this advice in couplets, as in poetic fashion. (IF...WE)
    In verse 12, once again he is speaking of the professing Christian ("deny him"), as Christ spoke of many a time throughout his parables (the sower).
    Verse 13 speaks of a true believer but weak in faith.
    Christ remains faithful. He never denies His own.
    He is sending the 12 out, and he is sending them forth to the Jews:
    Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
    --This again is pre-cross. Even Peter denied the Lord pre-cross. This is advice given strictly to the 12.
    Matthew 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

    As you take this all in context remember this advice too:
    Matthew 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
    --How many councils (Sanhedrins) and synagogues have you been to lately?
    He is speaking of a reward here; not an inheritance.

    Which He also reiterated in Matthew 19:27-30:

    Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?”
    And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
    And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.
    But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.[/quote]
    He is not speaking of an inheritance. The word "inherit" can be used in different ways. Eternal life is a gift not an inheritance. It is the gift of salvation (Eph.2:8,9; Rom.6:23; John 5:24).
    He couldn't do anything to inherit eternal life. He went away sorrowful because he coveted his riches more than he desired Christ.
    You simply ignore context: the context of time or dispensation, the context of reward vs inheritance, the context of history (i.e. gospel) vs. the context of doctrine (i.e. epistle), etc.
     
  8. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    That's why I called him "Babelist" on another thread. Babelist thinks many words makes him right. No, it just makes him stubborn.

    I rarely read through his posts, way too long, incoherent mumbo jumbo. He combines completely unrelated scripture. I once compared his style to that Johnny Cash song "One Piece at a Time".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2riRAGzNzvQ&feature=kp

    Yeah, it's a 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59 automobile...

    Except the song has order to it, Babelist's posts don't.
     
    #88 Winman, Jun 9, 2014
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  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The five facts I presented were simple, clear and indisputable and that is why you still can't provide even a rational response to a single one.

    For example, The first type of ground Jesus explicitly and clearly states to represent a type of "heart" and explcitly and clearly states this type of "heart" is found in a person just as the other three types of ground.

    19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way sids.


    You claim this is not representative of a person and heart condition as the other three but Jesus clearly states

    1. This is a person - "anyone.....this is he.....his...."
    2. This ground represents a type of heart - "in his heart"
    3. This is a type of ground as the other three - "by the way side"
    4. The type of heart/ground is "understandeth it not"

    Indeed, it is this first type of ground that sets the interpretative standard for the next three types of ground. From this first, we learn that the types of ground are conditions of the human "heart."

    I can't help you see or understand the simple straight forward truths that are explicitly stated. You can't respond rationally to a single fact I stated neither can winman. The only thing both of you are capable of doing is insulting.
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Some have the time and can "count" the number of words used in the above post but not one can dispute a single fact presented. These facts are based upon clear and explicit statement found in the text. I dare either James or Winman to simply take one "fact" at a time and provide any reasonable rational contextual based reason what I stated does not reflect the explicit text and context.

    They can't and so we will hear more hot air about the number of words, or some other kind of personal insults.
     
  11. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Anybody can dispute your opinions, obviously you do not know the meaning of the word dispute (or "facts"). And that is what they are, your opinions, not facts.

    I dispute this opinion;

    I completely dispute this OPINION (not fact). The thorny ground represents a saved person, this person "believed" even if only for awhile.

    Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
    13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

    Note in vs. 12 that Jesus says the devil comes and takes the word out of the heart of the way side soil, "lest they should believe and be saved".

    If you believe you will be saved. Jesus didn't say you have to believe and keep believing to be saved, he just said believe.

    Now note in vs. 13 that the rocky soil believed for "a while". They are saved, they trusted Jesus to save them, and he did save them. But when they went out to witness and tell others of Jesus they were persecuted and treated poorly as the world will do. They fell away and did not continue to go out and tell people, therefore they produced no fruit, which is other saved persons who believed the gospel.

    Note also in the original parable, that Jesus said this rocky soil sprang up.

    Luk 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

    Dead things do not spring up. This shows the rocky soil was saved, they were born again, only they fell away when persecution arose and did not produce fruit.

    The thorny soil also sprang up which shows they were saved as well.

    Luk 8:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.

    Again, dead things do not spring up, this shows the thorny soil was also saved, but these persons were distracted by the pleasures of the world and produced no fruit.

    There, I have disputed, and refuted, your opinions.

    But it doesn't surprise me that you think your opinions are facts. No surprise at all.
     
    #91 Winman, Jun 9, 2014
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  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    ALL who look to have been "fallen away", and lost salvation were those whom the Parable of the Sower illustrates to us were merely those professing to know Jesus, as when tough times hit/life happened etc they just went back to their worldly ways!

    "sow returning to its own vomit"
     
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You don't know the difference between a "fact" and an "opinion." What you gave is an opinion based upon inferences, and in addition you don't even deal with the text we are disputing.

    What I gave is an indisputable fact, as it is a fact, that the ONLY soil in this context (BTW that is what we are dealing with) that is called "good" is the fourth ground type. It is a FACT that "good" is ascribed by Christ to only one type of ground and it is the fourth type - period!
     
  14. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I wasn't disputing that only the fourth soil was called good, any idiot could read the text and know that. My what a genius you are! :rolleyes:

    What I dispute is that being called good only is what characterizes a saved person.

    I showed two reasons the rocky soil "characterizes" a "saved" person, first, they believed, and Jesus said if you believe you are "saved", second, the rocky soil sprang up which also "characterizes" a "saved person". Dead things do not spring up.

    I showed that the thorny soil also sprang up which "characterizes" a "saved" person, again, dead things do not spring up.

    So again, I not only disputed your opinions, I refuted them.
     
    #94 Winman, Jun 9, 2014
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  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Jesus did not teach that. You are mistaken. Read your two Bibles carefully. Perhaps you should invest in some other books as well.
    Here is what the Scriptures say:

    John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
    24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
    25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
    --The context shows here that the many that "believed," were simply "professors" of his name, nominal believers, believing that he was a "rabbi from God," and nothing more.
    Jesus did not commit himself to them. "He knew all men."
    He knew that their belief in him was not genuine belief. Verse 25 basically teaches that Christ didn't need that type of testimony, the testimony of an unsaved person. He knew what was in their hearts and he didn't like it.
    And yet the Bible says: "They believed in his name."
    Your strict adherence to one phrase/one meaning interpretation forces you to believe that these are true genuine believers in spite of Christ's denial.
    You disagreed; not refuted. The thorny soil is contaminated soil, a soil that can only produce corrupt fruit of that characteristic of an unbeliever.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Of the 4 soils mentioned by Jesus, ONLY the last group were really born again soil!
     
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