Featured Possible Ten Nation Kingdoms

Icon,

That believers in Christ will rule and reign with Christ is not being debated. That our citizenship is in heaven is not being debated. What is being debated is your claim that believers are currently ruling and reigning with Christ.

In Matthew ch 19 for example, Jesus tells the disciples that in the regeneration they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Notice that it is a future condition, in the regeneration. Notice that they will be sitting on thrones. Are you sitting on a throne Icon? I don't think so.

You seem to equate citizenship in the kingdom with authority within the kingdom in this present age. You have not even come close to proving from the Bible that believers rule and reign with Christ in this present age. We are supposed to be subjects to the King, humble servants of the Master.

Paul tells us that we will all appear at the judgement seat of Christ. I would offer that this is the time that kingdom assignments will be handed out, read all about it in the Bible. 2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that everyone may receive what is due them for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." Question Icon, have you appeared before the judgement seat of Christ to receive your rewards for doing the will of God? I don't think so. You Icon I believe have placed the cart before the horse, you are eating your dessert before your vegtables, you have your paycheck spent before you have earned your full day's wages.

Earlier I asked you the question, if all believers are ruling and reigning with Christ, who are they ruling and reigning with (on edit: ruling and reigning over)? You offered no answer because there is no answer for this present age. There are only two possible subjects that you could possibly be ruling and reigning with, 1. unbelievers who are not even part of the kingdom, and 2. angels of which I seriously doubt you have any authority over a this point in your spiritual development.

My Bible teaches that Chruch age believers are to:

1. Make disciples...
Matthew 28:18-20 "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”"

2. Wait for the Masters Return...
John 14:1-4 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”

If your view is that Jesus returned already AD70 then you cannot possibly be waiting for his return. The negative implications of this within the kingdom that you claim authority in are, I think, difficult to overstate.

 

Thomas 15

Where have I posted that? 70 ad was a coming in judgement

Why would you repeat this when I already posted this to you?

With all the books you claim you have on end times...maybe you should crack open one or two of them , if you cannot distinguish between a full preterist and a partial preterist.
The second coming is the last day.


This cloud-coming of Christ in judgment
is reminiscent of Old Testament cloud-comings of God in
judgment upon ancient historical people and nations (Pss. 18:7-15;
1043; Isa. 19:1; Joel 2:1, 2; Hab. 1:2K; Zeph. 1:14, 15).

 

DHK,

All sin will be punished with exact and righteous judgement.....every idle word will people give an account for.

It is not judgement day yet,DHK


3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

While their are some temporal judgements now, the judgement of the last day is ahead,before we enter the eternal completed form of the KINGDOM

 

You are a preterist , no?

You believe Jesus returned in AD70, no?

You belive that approx 99-100% of the prophecies of the Bible have been fufilled, no?

You believe that the time texts of Mat 16:28, Mat 24:34, Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:7 indicate that Jesus would return during the first century, no?

You believe we are living in the Kingdom and that believers are ruling and reigning with Christ, no?

 

No.....there are full preterists....

There are partial preterists----postmill ,amill.....I am in between these two at this time...still studying it out.

NO...I do not.

about 90-95%........white throne judgement, eternal state still to come, The gospel is going worldwide from now until the last day.....all the elect have to be harvested by the word preached. This can take a long time....

NO.......The time texts do show that a coming in judgement would happen by 70 ad....but not a physical return...... you listed verses and wondered earlier how partial preterists look at them....

here is your friend Ken Gentry.....
I am continuing a quick survey of the Book of Revelation. Having dealt with the first six seals, we are now ready to consider the seventh seal and the following trumpet judgments. In all this we must continue to bear in mind John’s near-term indicators: he is writing about first-century events (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10).

With the opening of the seventh seal the seven trumpet series begins sounding (Rev 8:1–6). The first four trumpets show judgments upon things, the last three upon men. They review and intensify the chaos of the seals: destruction increases from one-fourth (Rev 6:8) to one-third (Rev 8:7–12).

Regarding earthquakes and eruptions, James Moffatt writes:

"Portents of this abnormal nature are recorded for the seventh decade of the first century by Roman historians. . . . Volcanic phenomena . . . in the Egean archipelago . . . are in the background of this description, and of others throughout the book; features such as the disturbance of islands and the mainland, showers of stones, earthquakes, the sun obscured by a black mist of ashes, and the moon reddened by volcanic dust, were the natural consequences of eruption in some marine volcano, and there — adjoining Patmos — was in a state of more or less severe eruption during the first century." See: See: Seneca, Lucilius 91; Tacitus, Histories 1:2–3 and Annals 12:58; 14:27; 15:22.

W. Boyd Carpenter writes: "Perhaps no period in the world’s history has ever been so marked by these convulsions as that which intervenes between the Crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem. Josephus records one in Judea (J.W. 4:4:5); Tacitus writes of them in Crete, Rome, Apamea, Phrygia, Campania (Ann. 12:58; 14:27; 15:22); Seneca (Ep. 91), in AD 58, mentions their extending their devastations over Asia (the proconsular providence, not the continent), Achaia, Syria, and Macedonia."

These judgments reflect the plagues upon Egypt at the Exodus (cp. Rev 8:5 with Ex 19:16f, Rev 8:7 with Ex 9:18ff; 8:8–9 with Ex 7:20f; 8:11 with Ex 10:21. Cf. Dt 28:15, 60ff). Jerusalem is now the equivalent of Egypt (see Rev 11:8). She and other cities in Israel are worse than Nineveh (Mt 12:41), Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom (Mt 11:21–23). She has become a "synagogue of Satan" (Rev 2:9; 3:9) — much like Jesus warns (Jn 8:44).

With the fifth trumpet we witness an outbreak of demonic torment (Rev 9:1–21). The fallen star here is Satan, "the angel" of the pit (v 11). The demons confined to the pit (2Pe 2:4; Jude 6; Lk 8:31) are loosed to torment Israel (vv 2, 3; cf. Rev 18:2), just as Christ warns (Mt 12:43f). The period of torment is "five months," which indicates the final siege of Jerusalem by Titus, when the Jews go mad as they are hopelessly trapped (Josephus, J.W. 5:1:1, 5). As F. F. Bruce notes, this siege lasts five months: "Titus began the siege of Jerusalem in April, 70. The defenders held out desperately for five months, but by the end of August the Temple area was occupied and the holy house burned down, and by the end of September all resistance in the city had come to an end."

At the sixth trumpet Roman reinforcements arrive (Rev 9:12–21). The four angels are destroying "angels" loosed upon Israel in fury. They probably represent the four Roman legions, which are headquartered at the Euphrates. Historians observe that "at the siege of Jerusalem four legions were involved (the Fifth, Tenth, Fifteenth and Twelfth)" (e.g., Safrai and Stern, The Jewish People, 315).

 

If believers are reigning their sin will already have been judged. We cannot reign until our sin is judged. Sinful kings do not reign.

Then the kingdom has not arrived, has it. First the judgment of believers must come. Everything must have order.

Then why, if the kingdom is here, is he not doing that. Your whole post is contradictory. If Christ were ruling with a rod of iron, then these judgments would be taking place in the here and now. But they are not. Christ will rule from the throne of David, on earth, in complete and full justice, over all the nations. We have never seen that. It is not recorded in history anywhere. But it will happen. His Kingdom has not yet come.

 

I have about 100 Bibles in my collection, all of them apparently defective because none of them even remotely say what you are saying. My Bibles in Rev 6:8, Rev 9:3-5 and Rev 9:18 every one of them speak of the judgements coming against the (peoples of the) earth not Israel like yours do. In Revelation Ch 1, it states that the message following is to the 7 churches in Asia, not to the jews in particular.

If as a preterist and reformed you believe the church is somehow the true israel or the new israel or replaces isreal how do you know that some of the judgement isn't being directed to someone in the church, perhaps the church in Thyatira Rev 2:18-29?

So, Icon, you claim to be a preterist but you don't believe what preterists believe? I don't blame you, the historical "evidence" you give is seriously lacking and makes the dispy newspaper readers look like scholars by comparison.

 

Icon,

Jesus said in John 14:3 and I quote: " If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. "

Question: For what reason is Jesus coming back?

Answer: to receive his to himself and to take them to the place in the Fathers house that he is preparing for us.

You either believe this or you don't but that is what is in the Bible.

True, there are judgements in the end times but the promise, and I know that reformed are big on promises, is that when Jesus returns he will take the believers to the fathers house. It's right there in John ch 14. Since the believers have not been taken to the fathers house:

1. Believers are not ruling and reigning in the kingdom yet.

2. Jesus has not returned yet.

 

Percho,

I believe Isa66:8 is speaking about the day of Pentecost.God took the elect remnant from national Israel,and used the grafted in elect gentiles to form the Chrisitian Israel.

While Jesus began the Kingdom and reigns from heaven right now, it is not complete until the last day, when the resurrected bodies are given and we enter into the Eternal state.The Future gathering of all saints on the last day will be when the one true church finally assembles:thumbs:

Jesus came suddenly to the temple:
3 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts.

6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Because of the overwhelming apostasy and covenant breaking, as part of the promised judgements Israel was judged, and the Christian Israel was formed from the root.ROMANS 9-15.

The Covenant curses[Deut28-32]came upon that nation:

14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

They would not bow their knee to king Jesus at that time, but they will at the white throne:thumbs:

 

DHK

The sins of believers were all judged at the cross.Jesus paid in full by His covenant death all the sins of His elect Covenant children.

The kingdom has already begun,and will transition to the eternal state on the last day,following the sheep and goat judgement.

I am thinking you are speaking of the bema seat..1cor3?

that will not be a judgement of sin, but rewards based on what was wrought in God.

.

DHK, there are some temporal judgements...ACTs 5 annaias and sappharia,
also we read this:
24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.

25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are o


also:
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

I would add the letters to the seven churches and hebrews 12 on Divine chastisement.

He already is:
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

it is recorded in this sermon DHK:thumbs:

 

thomas15

All Christians believe this T-15

Yes....all believe this:thumbs:

yes they are...because Jesus reigns now....we are In HIM

Correct:thumbs: he returns on the last day:jesus:

 

They were judged concerning salvation and only concerning salvation. Concerning your walk with God you must still come before the judgment seat of Christ, and there be judged. You still, on this earth must bring your sins before God and repent of them. Does 1John 1:9 mean nothing to you? Are you sinless? Have you nothing, ever, in your Christian life to repent of? Be careful of your answer, lest 1John 1:8,10 apply to you. The fact that we still have an old nature that we battle with day by day, and have not received our new natures is indicative that we are not reigning with Christ. Christ said that we WILL reign as kings, not that we are reigning.

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
--That time has not come yet.

Revelation 20 gives a specific time for that reign in that kingdom. It is a period of one thousand years (i.e. 1,000 years). Since the time of Christ, 2,000 years have elapsed. Your math is wrong. It doesn't add up. The Millennial Kingdom hasn't come yet. It hasn't started yet. You are just plain wrong and need to admit that. The kingdom is one thousand years, not two thousand years plus infinity. You can't find that in Scripture.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: ...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
--Why do you argue with Scripture?

Of course. The bema seat must come before the Millennial Kingdom starts.
What do you think a work done with a wrong attitude is? Or an "unfinished work," "a work not worthy of a reward," etc. They are sinful works. They involve sin. There will be loss of reward because of sin. Don't think that sin will not be made manifest at the bema seat, because it will. There will be loss of reward because of sin. It is a judgment of works, but there will be loss of reward because of the believers' sins. Don't be fooled by that. If ALL your work was accepted by God you would have lived a perfect life on earth, but we know that is not the case.
What do you think Paul meant when he said:

2 Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
--What did he mean by "the terror of the Lord"? What was he thinking about? He had in mind the bema seat of Christ and what a terrifying time it would be standing before an awesome God and giving account before Him. What is the context of those words?

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
--It will be a terrifying thing to stand in his presence. Sinful works will be judged.

Jesus said: "you do err not knowing the Scriptures."

In his kingdom all nations from all the corners of the earth will come and worship him. All nations will be subdued by him. All nations will be judged by him. There will be no more war. All nature will be in harmony such as is described in Isaiah 11. But you don't accept those Scriptures, simply allegorize them. This has not and never has happened. Christ is not reigning as king now. The devil is. There is chaos on this earth, not order. Satan in the god of this earth, not Christ. The Scriptures state that very clearly. Why don't you accept the Scriptures? You have yet to refute the Scriptures I have given you. Why?

It does not say that Christ is ruling on this earth today.

You do err not knowing the Scriptures.
Peter was speaking of the resurrection of Christ which the Jews had rejected. It wasn't David that ascended up into heaven, but Christ. Can't you see the contrast that Peter is making. Christ is not ruling from this earth, as he some day will. He is on the right hand of the throne of God.
Who is ruling this earth?
The god of this world--Satan.

 

Question for all and or explain your understanding.

Are we judged before or after death?

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Hebrews 9:27 KJV

 

DHK

All sins of the elect were judged and paid for at the cross.Jesus said it is finished.

.

The judgement of believers works are as to: what sort they are-
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
This is not a judgement of sin...it states of what SORT it is.

No one has said otherwise....likes like the proverbial red-herring on the way:thumbs:

This kind of accusation indicates to me that you cannot remain on the topic, so once again for at least the third time in this thread alone you attempt to
run over me ,because you cannot deal with what has been posted already.

This stupid remark has nothing to do with the discussion.This is pathetic.

Again , very lame attempt to divert away from the real issue as you cannot come to truth because of your theology.

Nothing to do with the topic.

The old man was co-crucified with Christ.We are not spiritual schizophrenics

Wrong...he reigns and us in Him.
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests - See the notes on Revelation 1:6.

And we shall reign on the earth - The redeemed, of whom we are the representatives. The idea clearly is, in accordance with what is so frequently said in the Scriptures, that the dominion on the earth will be given to the saints; that is, that there will be such a prevalence of true religion, and the redeemed will be so much in the ascendency, that the affairs of the nations will be in their hands. Righteous people will hold the offices; will fill places of trust and responsibility; will have a controlling voice in all that pertains to human affairs. See the notes on Daniel 7:27, and Revelation 20:1-6 notes. To such a prevalence of religion all things are tending; and to this, in all the disorder and sin which now exist, are we permitted to look forward. It is not said that this will be a reign under the Saviour in a literal kingdom on the earth; nor is it said that the saints will descend from heaven, and occupy thrones of power under Christ as a visible king. The simple affirmation is, that they will reign on the earth; and as this seems to be spoken in the name of the redeemed, all that is necessary to be understood is, that there will be such a prevalence of true religion on the earth that it will become a vast kingdom of holiness, and that, instead of being in the minority, the saints will everywhere have the ascendency.


Vincents word studies-
Us (ἡμᾶς)

Read αὐτοὺς them.

Kings (βασιλεῖς)

Read, βασιλείαν a kingdom. See on Revelation 1:6.

We shall reign (βασιλεύσομεν)

Read βασιλεύουσιν they reign. Their reigning is not future, but present.

 

These are in heaven awaiting the resurrection of the last day to return to earth.
we shall reign on the earth-This is a new feature added to Re 1:6. Aleph, Vulgate, and Coptic read, "They shall reign." A and B read, "They reign." Alford takes this reading and explains it of the Church EVEN NOW, in Christ her Head, reigning on the earth: "all things are being put under her feet, as under His; her kingly office and rank are asserted, even in the midst of persecution." But even if we read (I think the weightiest authority is against it), "They reign," still it is the prophetical present for the future: the seer being transported into the future when the full number of the redeemed (represented by the four living creatures) shall be complete and the visible kingdom begins. The saints do spiritually reign now;

We both know full well how numbers are used..

Your hyper literalism keeps you from it.

.

It has

REV, 20 is the only place the thousand year period is mentioned. And in discussing the 1000yr period, you have no place in scripture where it says that the reign will be on the earth.....no where....look all through rev 20...it does not say it is from on the earth.It is a heavenly reign that extends down to the earth.
Jesus rules and reigns from heaven.

Unless you find the "earth in REV.20"...it is you who argue with scripture.

No..it happens before the eternal state.

Wood hay and stubble, are wood hay and stubble.It does not say,wood hay,
and sin. Everything we do is tainted by sin...and all sin has been paid for.
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

It is speaking about the quality of the work.

No one claims sinless perfection.

What do you think Paul meant when he said:

He had in mind that we are ambassadors who bring the message of our reigning King to the unsaved....

Your friend CI Scofield does not agree with you either DHK-
Scofield Reference Notes

[1] For we must all appear

The judgment of the believer's works, not sins, is in question here. These have been atoned for, and are "remembered no more forever" Heb 10:17 but every work must come into judgment, Mt 12:36 Rom 14:10 Gal 6:7 Eph 6:8 Col 3:24,25. The result is "reward" or "loss" (of the reward), "but he himself shall be saved" 1Cor 3:11-15.

He did say that to the religious people of that day.He did not say it to me in this discussion though DHK>

That is happening now as the gospel goes worldwide.

.

Many understand the language different than you do.Many of the types of figurative language , types, metaphors, parables, similies, have a literal meaning that is spoken of in several different ways...not your one size fits all hyper-literal ideas.

If you keep repeating this blasphemous idea.....you like Nebuchadnezzar might be munching on grass for 7 yrs until you learn the lesson about who rules.....
30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

This foul idea is why you look in the newspaper looking for Satan and the anti-christ, instead of looking for kingdom growth and Jesus.

Jesus is the God of the universe , earth included, and satan is a defeated foe.

I have refuted all your false ideas, and am puzzled why you are obsessed with satan.

Christ rules in the MIDST OF HIS ENEMIES...Yesterday< Today, and forever.

.

I will stick with what i know and continue to learn more about the Kingly reign of Jesus.....you can hide from satan, the beast, the false prophet, the 10 nation confederacy, all of which have come and gone.

Well , you can live under satans "rule" if you want....I do not .
Jesus reigns as King now, and has already translated me into His kingdom.:thumbs: