Some common Ground between Camps

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    The OSAS camp verses the Anti-OSAS camp.

    Sometimes as I listen to these arguments I get the feeling that much of the disagreements are due to a lack of understanding just what each camp truly believes, and that maybe either side just isn't doing an adequate job of conveying their message.

    Plastering proof text all over the screen (by either camp) simply does not persuade anyone. It does not get to the core of the issue.

    The issue is justification, if we cannot agree on the how one is justified before God then moving on into other scriptures which speak of "warnings and threats" will be meaningless, or worse, only confusing to the reader.

    There are many passages which speak to justification, but one in particular is absolutely clear about the law and it's role in justifying, so let's take a look at it, ask ourselves a question or two, settle this issue of justification as pertaining to the law, and then move on from there. For the law is probably the most debated topic between the two sides.

    Gal 5, Paul scolds the Galatian Jewish believers for demanding that the Gentile believers be circumcised in order to be justified before God. We know that being circumcised is taking a vow, or making a covenant between the person and God to obey the law. We know that it is not the act of circumcision in itself Paul is opposing, but rather the covenant behind the sign which is an oath to keep the whole law.

    This leads Paul to declare this statement; "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace".

    Now here is the simple question that will reveal unto the reader just where they stand before God....

    Whosoever reading this OP believes they are justified by the law?
     
  2. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    So far so good, 34 views and no yeses yet. We'll give it some more time and hopefully this issue concerning the law can be settled and agreed upon by each camp.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Fallen From Grace - severed from Christ - is the lost state whether one is returning to it - being severed from Christ and fallen from Grace, or whether one never was joined to Christ and is simply living apart from Christ and Grace never having been joined in the first place - never having been severed or fallen from a position that they never had - is still lost.

    In either case - The lost cannot be justified by the Law - because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

    These are too very simple points - and it just does not get any easier than this.

    in Christ,

    Bob

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Well, it could get just a little easier, we all need to answer the question in the OP and then we can move forward....

    "Whosoever reading this OP believes they are justified by the law?"

    Please let us know your position everybody "yes" or "no" and then we can respond to other points and concerns you may have.
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206
    There is common ground. It begins with acknolwedging that salvation is not monolithic but is threefold in direct connection with the whole nature of man which is also threefold.

    1. Past tense - spirit - Jn. 3:6
    2. Present tense - soul/life- Mt. 10:44-46
    3. Future tense - body - 1 Cor. 15

    OSAS is based upon the past tense aspect. Where the common gound lies is the present tense salvation of the soul/life. Here salvation has to do with the manner on how you live and it can be saved and lost. The soul itself cannot be lost (1 Cor. 3:15) but its manifestation in life can be redeemed or lost depending on if it is lived under the flesh or the Spirit.

    Most of the texts used by the anti-OSAS camp are texts that deal with "redeeming the time" (Eph. 5:16).

    Those like Bob who are messed up on the nature of man cannot possibly understand the salvation of man as they will always confuse the past tense aspect with the present tense aspect. regeneration/justificaton has to do with the past tense while progressive sanctification of the life deals with the present tense. Those who embrace OSAS but reject the threefold nature of man corresponding with three tense salvation will be unable to respond to all the attacks from those who oppose OSAS. Hence, it ends up in pitting scripture proof text lists against each other.
     
    #5 The Biblicist, Jul 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 4, 2013
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Indeed while Gal 5:4 and John 15:1-8 totally debunks OSAS - it does not mean there are not common ground agreement between the OSAS and free will camp of Arminians.

    1. No lost person can be justified by Law.

    2. The Gospel of all ages - offers only "salvation by grace through faith".

    3. Perseverance of the saints - is not optional - it is essential to the Gospel.

    4. There will be a future judgment of all - even the saints "We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ".

    5. That future judgment does not change the salvation status of the one judged. It merely demonstrates it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    The "false hope" of OSAS is that nothing present and future will have any bearing.

    So glad that some of those who believe in OSAS are actually willing to look at "tenses".

    ===============


    Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


    1 Timothy 4:16
    Pay
    close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


    Heb 2:1-3
    1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it


    Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
    and the boast of our hope
    firm until the end.


    Heb 3:12-14
    12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
    13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
    by the deceitfulness of sin.
    14 For we have become partakers of Christ,
    if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


    Heb 10:35-39
    35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
    36 For you have
    need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
    37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
    38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
    39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

    1Cor 15:1-2
    1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
    in which also you stand,
    2 by which also you are
    saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

    Rom 11:22
    20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
    22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
    if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
    23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    ======================

    In any case - note that even the 1, 3 and 5 point Calvinists worry about tenses - because in that model your present assurance of salvation is "retro-deleted" when it is found that 10 years from today you fail to "persevere firm unto the end".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #7 BobRyan, Jul 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 4, 2013
  8. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Kinda raising an eyebrow here, this sounds like Millennial Exclusion speak where they teach the spirit is saved but the soul can be lost casting the person into hell for the 1000 year reign of Christ.
     
  9. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Not to be picky, but just so we are thinking the same way here...

    1. No person, lost or saved, can be justified by obeying the law.

    2. The Gospel of all ages - offers "salvation by grace through faith" only.

    3. Perseverance of the saints - is not optional - it is essential to the Gospel.

    4. There will be a future judgment of all - even the saints, for the saints "We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ". For the lost, The Great White Throne Judgment unto the Lake of Fire.

    5. That future judgment does not change the salvation status of the one judged. It merely demonstrates it.
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206
    No relationship at all.

    The spirit is born again - Jn. 3:6
    The life lived is the expression of the conscious self(soul) - Mt. 15. From the heart come thoughts which give expression to words and actions = life lived. If the heart motive is the glory of God and the words and actions are in keeping with the revealed will of God then that TIME in which that is expressed is saved for the glory of God in time and for rewards in glory. If that TIME is filled from a heart with a wrong motive and/or disobedience to God's revealed will then it is LOST, wasted and in addition reaps what it sows in consequential results.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Indeed while Gal 5:4 and John 15:1-8 totally debunks OSAS - it does not mean there are not common ground agreement between the OSAS and free will camp of Arminians.

    1. No lost person can be justified by Law.

    2. The Gospel of all ages - offers only "salvation by grace through faith".

    3. Perseverance of the saints - is not optional - it is essential to the Gospel.

    4. There will be a future judgment of all - even the saints "We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ".

    5. That future judgment does not change the salvation status of the one judged. It merely demonstrates it.


    1. Saved people are already justified - they are not lost and looking for Justification by law.

    2. Saved by Grace through faith - not of works lest anyone should boast.

    That is the path for the lost person seeking salvation.

    The one who already has salvation is not seeking to become saved.

    The Arminian can know with certainty that he/she is saved today but cannot tell if they will choose to persevere 10 years from today.

    The 1,3 and 5 point Calvinist -- cannot even know that.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #11 BobRyan, Jul 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 4, 2013
  12. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Ok, thanks! I just wanted to be sure of your answer since many of the proof text you often post against a person's salvation are passages about works. I think this is why people get confused in the debate as to just what your position is on justification/salvation.
     
  13. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Ok, thanks!
     
  14. drfuss

    drfuss
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,692
    Likes Received:
    0
    One problem with this thread is that it puts all Christians that do not believe in one of the doctrines of OSAS, into one group. Many ES believers tend to do this. There are many variations in non-OSAS beliefs. Some non-OSAS beliefs only differ from OSAS in definitions and terminology while others include varying degrees of the law and works.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    What they are missing is that the texts are not mine - they are the Bible.

    If their view of salvation does not square with the Bible - then their argument "is with the text" not me.

    One who believes in OSAS will often reject what the Bible says about works showing/proving/demonstrating the fact that someone is no longer saved.

    And in many cases we have Bible texts that simply "should not exist" If OSAS were actually true.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206
    No they do not! Gal. 5:4 refers to falling from "the truth" of the gospel of Grace due to false teachers (Gal. 1:8-9, 3:1) not from the state of grace.

    John 15:1-8 refers to saved persons operating without Christ in producing fruit.

    They are said to be "clean" - v. 3 and those already said to be clean 'YOU" are the same you he LATER says "WITHOUT Me YE can do nothing"!

    The withered branch is connected to him. A Person canot be "IN HIM" spiritually and be lost as the lost condition is only found OUTSIDE of him in regard to SPRITUAL CONDITION. So he is not talking about a LOST person being found "IN ME" as that is impossible. Those in him are all "clean" and it is these "clean" ones in regard to the saved condition that he is addressing when he says to them "YE" can do nothing without Him. To be WITHOUT him in this context is in regard to PRODUCING FRUIT. Dead limbs are WITHOUT THE SAP flowing through them and they are cut off and burned. Time not under the leadership of the Spirit (Eph. 5:18) is lost, wasted, burned (Eph. 5 :16) because it consists of life cut off from God and attempting His work "without me."


    1. No lost person can be justified by Law.[/QUOTE] Or sanctified by the Law as the law has no power to justify or sanctify anyone. Neither does the Holy Spirit enable the child of God to be ultimately justified or sanctified by the Law. Christ is our righteousness and that is imputed by faith without works. Justification in the sight of men is a different story (Jm. 2).

    Not through "faithfulness" as beleivers but through the substitutionary Person and faithfulness of Christ to satisfy all the law in our behalf. Not "by grace" through us but by grace in the Person and work of Christ FOR US - IN OUR BEHALF - substitutionarily.

    False! You are defining "perseverance" to be faithfulness to the law = works. Preservation not perseverance!




    Not for justification to enter heaven, but for rewards only "according to our works." We will already be PERFECTED IN OUR OWN PERSON IN GLORIFICATION AT THE RESURRECTION BEFORE WE STAND IN FRONT OF CHRIST (1 Cor. 15:51-55) thus already judged fit to enter heaven before we stand in judgment for rewards.

    False! It has nothing to do with our status whatsoever! Our status is determined at the point of faith - "SHALL NEVER DIE" "passed from death unto life and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGEMENT" Our status is full glorification at the point of resurrection
     
  17. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Nobody is missing the text are not yours whenever you do post your proof text, they simply do not agree with you quoting them when they do not speak to the question of OSAS.

    Because the one who believes in OSAS does not see a person "no longer saved" but rather a person never saved to begin with in those very text you quote.

    I have studied all of these text for years and I do not find anything that speaks against OSAS.

    I'm glad we had this debate here thus far. I was always under the impression that you believed the law played a part in a person's justification before God, it must have been the way you posted things in the past. This is why I wanted to go step by step and see if we had common ground.

    OSAS is the same as saying Once Justified Always Justified. So the issue is how is one justified before God. We agree that it is through faith only, therefore, we must study each passage that is brought up against OSAS and determine if it is speaking of those who believe and are justified are found suddenly not believing.

    For if one is justified by faith only, then the law cannot disannul one's justification. Furthermore, if one is justified by faith only, then lack of fruit cannot disannul one's justification. And if one is justified by faith only, then sin cannot disannul one's justification. For we all fall short of the glory of God on each of these points, no one is perfect, not even for one day.

    We must ask ourselves,

    1. Is the passage clearly speaking of a believer, or, is the passage speaking of a professing believer since the scriptures are clear there will be many false believers among us (wheat and tares).

    2. Is the passage clearly speaking of a true believer deciding not to believe anymore.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4


    Here we find a rather substantial list of OSAS debunking texts - that are difficult for the objective unbiased reader to ignore.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2004339#post2004339

    A simple example can be found with just a few texts from that list above.



    The sequence IN the John 15 is not what the OSAS-at-all-costs man-made tradition would have it be and Paul also gives us a clue about the reality of the saved saints - being severed from Christ should they fail to continue in the Gospel -

    Gal 5 (NASB)
    . 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
    4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)
    Severed from Christ -- is lost.

    Is the ending state - after being joined to Christ and then severed.

    Which leads to being burned in the fire - no longer a living branch at all.

    John 15:
    2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
    and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
    3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
    4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
    unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
    5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
    for without Me you can do nothing.
    6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
    and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
    7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
    and it shall be done for you.
    8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

    [FONT=&quot]
    And of course let's not avoid Paul's example of being severed from Christ that we find in Romans 11


    Rom 11
    20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

    21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

    22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off


    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]"Forgiveness revoked" model as Matt 18

    Matt 18
    32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
    33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
    34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

    While it may be necessary to ignore all of these texts when one is clinging to OSAS - I think that those who do venture out and look at them will realize instantly that these are NOT cases of the Bible spending time on the problem of the "lost" becoming "LostER" as the OSAS camp has tried to imagine it - so that they can get OSAS to survive the texts.

    Sorry to state the obvious - but in this case I think it is warranted.

    The imaginary insert of "o that is just God's way of warning the lost - not to be become lostER" is a fiction for the OSAS group - that can hardly be taken seriously by the objective unbiased reader. I think that even you will admit that "please don't become lostER by failing to persevere in your present state of lostness" is a pretty rediculous OSAS defense against these texts and cannot be entertained by someone not already married to an OSAS bias to start with.

    in Christ,

    Bob
    [/FONT][/FONT]
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    I think you have a tendency to view a Bible text is "me" rather than God speaking and you dismiss it - as though it is just my "view" that is the issue as you skip past the text.

    The Bible does not teach that keeping the Law is how the lost become justified - and the saints are not circling back to the lost state - seeking to be justified like a lost person - starting all over again.

    OSAS says "once justified - then ignore every Bible text that speaks of the danger of being severed from Christ or fallen from Grace".

    And that is pretty hard to swallow for the objective unbiased bible student who is not already sold out for Calvinism.

    It is even easier than that - all you have to do is "notice the details".

    For example when the OSAS argument dreams up the non-sensical idea of the lost person failing to PERSEVERE in their present state (of lostness) and moving on to "lostER" as the real problem for the lost -then we know that OSAS has had to resort to pure nonsense to make its case.

    And that is an easy example to find - time after time after time.

    Word-gamming the Bible is not a funny sort of "exegesis".

    Bringing your bias to the text of the form "For if one is justified by faith only, then the law cannot disannul one's justification" -- is not a Bible text, is not a doctrine supported by the Bible.

    Instead of dreaming up "rules for discounting Bible texts" - why not just read them and then "note the details"??

    Here again you are setting up an "argument with the text" trying to get OSAS to survive a text that you might read that says that bad fruit comes from bad trees and those bad trees of Matt 7 do not get eternal life.

    Your argument above is that a good tree CAN indeed produce bad fruit and should not be subject to the Matt 7 judgment that Christ speaks of - OR we should be able to eisegete INTO the text of Matt 7 some "bad tree but in a good way" sort of "saved anyway not matter what Christ said" solution so as to save OSAS from certain debunking.

    I don't go for that sort of eisegesis.

    Keep some simple and obvious points in mind.

    1. The Bible is true even if it does not fit the usages of OSAS.
    2. Looking at the tree - does not change the tree - it simply exposes it for what it already is.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    We have to view the text from our already established doctrine of saved by grace through faith only.

    Does the passage speak of faith at all? The answer is no, we do see grace in the passage. Eph 2:8 states we are saved by grace through faith, faith being the qualifier while grace being the "good pleasure" of God.

    Do we see the qualifier in this statement "fallen from grace"? No we do not, what they have fallen from is God's "good pleasure" and have been "severed from Christ" as far as being able to produce any kind of good fruit without Christ supporting their efforts (John 15), rather trying to please God and produce fruit through the keeping of the law, which is a false doctrine. "Christ is become of no effect unto you".

    This is just one scripture that has been improperly used as a proof text against OSAS. As we can see, if we look a little closer to the details, it is not speaking about losing salvation at all.
     

Share This Page

Loading...