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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Jan 5, 2015.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You are now mixing contexts that have no relationship with each other. James is talking to professed Christians and so is Paul in 2 Corinthians 3:1-6, whereas Romans 2:1-15 is dealing with the self-righteous lost man and waht basis they will be judged on the day of judgement according to their works.

    Here the "heart" refers only to the conscience but in the other texts it refers to the whole inner man.
     
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ??????

    6 who will render to every man according to his works:
    7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
    10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
    13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
    14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
    15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

    Are you slave to your presuppositions? You honestly believe these passages are describing unregenerate/uncircumcised hearts?
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I am a slave to the immediate context. This is about standing BEFORE THE LAW to be determine the eternal state. The preceding and following context is describing LOST people not saved people. Saved people shall NEVER stand before THE LAW to have their eternal state judged ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.

    The immediate issue for this specific passage is that Paul is showing how both the LOST Jew and Gentile can be judged with perfect justice in that day. The conscience does "the work of the law" and therefore provides a solid basis for judging Gentiles who were never given the written law of God.
     
    #23 The Biblicist, Jan 12, 2015
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  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Where do see that in the context, standing before the law? What I see is 'the righteous judgment of God', not standing before the law.
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The Law of Moses and the conscience which does the work of the written law is the standard set forth to judge their works as verses 10-15 clearly show. Thus to stand before God in judgement is to stand before the Law spelled out in verses 10-16 as it is that Law which God uses to justly judge them according to their works.
     
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    6 who will render to every man according to his works:
    7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
    8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
    9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
    10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
    11 for there is no respect of persons with God. Ro 2

    ...and ALL you see here are unregenerate folks going to hell? No regenerate/circumcised hearts here?
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2:15

    I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit, Ro 9:1

    You have to willfully refuse to see it.
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Repeat of the same post
     
    #28 The Biblicist, Jan 12, 2015
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  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    1. First look at the overall topic wherein this section falls that is spelled out in Romans 1:18 and is brought to a conclusion in Romans 3:9-23

    2. Second, look at the description of the persons preceding this in Romans 1:22-2:5 - no saved persons

    3. Third, look at the sort of people described in verses 17-23 - no saved persons.

    4. Fourth, the circumcision of heart in a later section (vv. 24-30) is brought into this section simply to show that external circumcision does not provide justification before God in that day of judgment.

    5. Fifth, the continuing subject from 3:1-23 is LOST PERSON who will not be justified under Law - vv. 19-21.

    6. Verses 6-16 is set in the middle of Self-RIGHTEOUS lost persons (vv. 1-5; 17-22).

    The purpose of this section is to prove that LOST MEN who are SELF-righteous will be judged fairly under the Law of God in the day of judgement.
     
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    The text of Ro 1 & 2 is virtually permeated with 'works' and 'doing' and 'practicing':

    27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.
    28 And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
    29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30 backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31 without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful:
    32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them. Ro 1
    1 Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judges another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things.
    2 And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things.
    3 And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
    4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
    5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 who will render to every man according to his works:
    7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
    8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
    9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
    10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
    11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
    13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
    14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
    15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

    Those circumcised in heart with the law written upon it were 'doing the law' (see 13:8-10), patient in well-doing, working good, and will be rendered eternal life for it. Period.
     
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You are missing the contextual problem. It is the immediate contextual claim of the self-righteous lost that Paul is considering, who are claiming by their own works to fit the approval for eternal life ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS under the law (2:4-5; 17-23). Paul's response is that they will indeed get a JUST hearing UNDER LAW and if their works demand what they claim, that is what they will receive UNDER LAW. However, the whole context from Rom. 1:18 to Romans 3:23 is that there is NONE RIGHTEOUS and NONE THAT DOETH GOOD under Law in spite of their claim and therefore NO FLESH shall be justfied UNDER LAW as it is will shut "EVERY MOUTH" according to complete JUSTICE by application of the law to anyone claims anything different.

    Romans 2:6-16 is ABSTRACT in application and GENERAL in application of JUST judgement UNDER LAW. Paul's point is that the LAW will judge their claims for approval DUE TO HOW THEY PERCEIVE THEIR WORKS with perfect JUSTICE. Notice that the person who will be approved for eternal life UNDER LAW is one that CONTINUES in keeping the Law as the Law requires and NO FLESH has ever been able to do that (Gal. 3:10-11). This is a context of works UNDER LAW "according to his works" UNDER LAW not according to grace.
     
    #31 The Biblicist, Jan 13, 2015
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  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    No, the context from 2:6 is building up to the question of 3:1.

    6 who will render to every man according to his works:
    7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
    8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
    9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
    10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
    11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
    14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law
    15 ...they show the work of the law written in their hearts
    29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
    1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision? Ro 3
     
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    We're given a fine example of those non-Jew 'other sheep I have not of this flock' with Cornelius in Acts 10:

    34 And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
    35 but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him. Acts 10
     
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    That is simply not true. The context begins with Romans 1:18 and Romans 1:19-3:8 is provided to lead up to the conclusion drawn beginning in Romans 3:9 and extended to Rom. 6:23. Paul's overall goal within this entire passage is to justify why the wrath of God (due to violating God's Law) is revealed from heaven against THE WHOLE WORD - ALL MEN because there is NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE.

    However, you are jerking a couple of texts out of this context and reversing the whole theme of this context.

    Moreover, you are ignoring the specific context that immediately precedes and follows 2:6-16 which is there are UNREGENERATED persons who CLAIM a favorable outcome on judgement day SOLELY DUE TO THEIR WORKS which they perceive as JUSTIFIED UNDER LAW. This is explicitly stated by Paul in verses 17-23 that immediately follows concerning the mindset of the self-righteous Jew which Paul repudiates and part of that repudiation is that external circumcision does not justify them UNDER LAW because external circumcision is worthless art from internal circumcision. So internal circumcision is simply brought into this discussion as a GROUNDS FOR CONDEMNING the self-righteous Jew who believes he will be more favored on judgement men day BY EXTERNAL WORKS.

    Immediately prior to this passage Paul says:

    And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

    He is specifically addressing the HYPOCRIT who THINKS he will do better on judgement day because how he PERCEIVES himself on the basis of his own works in contrast to others. This is a lost man as the next two verses show.

    However, this brings us to the intent and design of verses 6-16 which is spelled out in verse 6 that Paul is strictly considering the day of judgement to THIS CONTEXTUAL LINE OF THINKING strictly according to the JUST MERITS determined by the Law of God concerning their WORKS. They see their works from their point of view as MERITING UNDER LAW favor with God. Paul throughout this entire context denies that very point of view UNDER LAW and so sets forth the JUST perimeter's or guidelines that God will apply to THEIR WORKS BY THE LAW. You don't understand this because you want to bring saved UNDER GRACE without works into this text and mix the two together when that is not the context or Paul's point. Paul's point is to repudiate the idea that THEIR WORKS OF HYPOCRITS are better than the works of what Jew regarded as unclean dirty sinners.

    The passage then carefully sets out the PERIMETERS or GUIDELINESS for JUST consideration of THEIR WORKS UNDER LAW (not under grace). Part of the JUST perimeters is that works which MEET the Law's Just demands will be JUSTIFIED for eternal life by the law - that is their hope but that is Paul's overall denial which he begins to prove beginning with verse 17 through Romans 3:20.

    Instead, your interpretation is repudiating the very point Paul is attempting to prove, that UNDER THE LAW nobody's works will be justified, NO FLESH will be justified, EVERY MOUTH will be shut and he is including THE WHOLE WORLD, which your interpretation repudiates as your interpretation states that SOME will be justified BY THEIR WORKS UNDER THE LAW as verses 6-16 is specifically dealing with "ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS" under law as to thier MERITED outcome.
     
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    In case you ain't figgered it out yet Bib, the Church at Rome evidently had a significant Jewish contingent.

    And yes, you are totally slave to your presuppositions if you refuse to see the lead-in to 3:1.

    1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?
    2 Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God. Ro 3

    ...and resumes the tangent here:

    4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Ro 9

    Notice that eternal life was NOT one of those advantages that the Jew had over the Gentile? God had more people among the nations than among the Jews during the Old Covenant. How? Because "the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit".
     
    #35 kyredneck, Jan 13, 2015
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  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Again, you are failing to comprehend the contextual development. You are simply reading into the text what it does not say or suggest.

    Romans 2:1-23 shows how the Law offers NO ADVANTAGE to the Jew over the Gentile in the day of judgement because EXTERNAL obedience to the Law cannot provide "works" that the Law will justify on judgement day - thus the works of the Jew under Law is no better than the works of the Gentiles without the written Law.

    With verse 24 he proves his point with the law of circumcision. The Jew thinks because he has obeyed the law of circumcison externally and the Gentile has not, that this external obedience gives him advantage over the Gentile in the day of Jugdement. The Jew thinks this way because he fails to see the Law is spiritual and demands an internal conformation in addition to external conformation and the external is more important than the external. Thus if the Gentile's heart is circumcised, but his flesh is not the internal trumps the external. His point is that the Law as interpreted and kept by the jew offers no advantage over the Gentile in the day of judgement. The Gentile with a circumcised heart has advantage over the Jew in the day of Judgment because it is not HIS WORKS that will be judged but CHRIST'S WORKS in his behalf.

    However, that does not mean the Law does not provide the Jew with great advantages over the Gentile BUT NOT IN THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT (3:1-5). It's advantages are NOW according to the design God gave the Law to them (vv. 20-21) to reveal their utter inability to keep the Law and lead them to faith in Christ to have KEPT IT IN THEIR PLACE (vv. 24-5:1).

    So, Romans 3:1 simply outlines the advantages that the Law gives the Jews NOW - AT THIS TIME - in regard to God's design for it - which was never to provide a way of justification but to define and reveal them as SINNERS under judgement so they would turn from WORKS done in their bodies and turn by faith to Christ's works performed in His body as the basis for justification.

    So it is a contrast between the disadvanage of the Law for the Jew in regard to the day of judgement as the law is perceived by the Jew, versus the advantage of the Law to the Jew NOW as perceived by God according to its proper use.
     
    #36 The Biblicist, Jan 13, 2015
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