Featured The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

Or, unfortunately you completely misinterpret the point Paul is making.

God is waiting for their evil to reach a perfect pitch? According to your interpretation of this passage it is not God waiting for them but rather God forming them to do evil.

 

Did the Supreme Potter make the evil vessels, or did they freely and willingly make themselves evil?

 

DHK

Yesterday you said sarcasm shows a lack of intellect.....this looks like evidence of sarcasm:thumbsup:

wrong...you do not understand the term or how it is used...it does not mean that grace cannot be resisted...it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case.

Never heard any Christian say any such thing....not once

while the violent do take it by force.....I never hear any Christians say this at all...this is almost incoherent.

You demonstrate you have no understanding of what we believe....let Protestant say what he believes...not you.

Did anyone say this? It is clear you have not properly learned from the confession of faith concerning God's decree....you mix and mash the words interchangeably that are each different.....

if you knew these basics you would not error as much....now we must go to part two of this refutation:thumbsup:

 

Not really. It is more of a rebuke. Just omit two words. Look again:

We use the English language. One cannot change the meaning of words.

The point is that words have meaning. We don't change the meaning willy nilly to fit our own convenient pre-conceived ideology.

Again, words have meaning. Read Acts 7:51.
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
--On this scripture alone IG is wrong.

Then you haven't been listening or reading this conversation. Almost every non-Cal in this conversation has said the same thing.

You are the one teaching it. If you believe in Irresistible Grace then you believe that grace cannot be resisted. IOW it cannot be refused. It is forced upon the individual whether he wants it or not. That is the teaching of Calvinism. I am simply putting it in a way that is more simple and easier to understand than your many confessions.

I have, many times.

I said it. You think I said they are the same. I just said they are different, and for a reason. Why not read my post more carefully for greater understanding.

You are right on one thing. I have not learned from the confession of faith concerning anything, nor do I intend to. My authority is the Word of God not confessions. I wouldn't be bothered by them.

Don't waste your time.

 

DHK;

No Cal offers this evil suggestion that you Arminians who plead the fifth, semi Pelagians, and Pelagians do all....some instruction from the confession would cure this...except for the wilfully ignorant,

Some proper instruction would lead you out from the error and wrongly dividing the word that you are doing now.

You use the wrong term.....yesterday you posted that predestination is only about believers as you were trying to play both sides of the fence.
Now because you want to attack cals you twist it.:laugh:

God ordained all that came to pass during ww2. Every aspect....the wicked acts of wicked men, the deaths, the day of those deaths...not one thing happened apart from what was ordained to come to pass.

Murder???Mass murder??......

Was the flood that destroyed the world of the ungodly a picnic?

how about this....a surprise party?

15 Samuel also said unto Saul, The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord.

2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

The God of Jn3:16 is also the God giving these commands.

Oh yes...the spectator god?

Nothing takes place that God has not ordained.

He does not have to, depraved man sins all by himself.

No one said he did...just you and your twisted caricature.

No he does not....and it is a lie to say this....I will show you;

Protestant...is that what you believe?

SG....is that what you believe?

Rippon...is that what you believe?

AA. is that what you believe?

Is there any Cal who believes this???? If not why is DHK allowed to post such lies? DHK...can you post where any Cal said this or not?

No one cares what you "think" is inferred....we want you to post and actual quote where any of us said anything like this.....

We see by this foolish posting you are unfit to comment on this topic as you make it clear you have no real idea about the differences.
This is why you are opposed.

No one is speaking of this

It is the rebellios question of the unsaved whose will is bound by sin.

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people make choices but the will is not free....

unscriptural whining.

still blind to the events of the fall.

Jesus is my God in the world I live in.




God offers man the gift of salvation, the gift of eternal life, which is always available to all and every one to freely accept.


It is Christ that has drawn all men to himself.
It is Christ that said wide is the road that leads to destruction...and narrow is the path that leads to life but few there are that enter into it. That path must be chosen. One must enter by his own volition. God doesn't force people down the right road.


Grace and mercy have been provided.
Grace and mercy need to be accepted by faith
Somewhere along the line you have heard of sola fide, haven't you?


Scripture taken out of context. If that were true, then in Acts 2, 3,000 people would not have been saved. You contradict yourself.


More scripture taken out of context. Many came to Jesus admitting they were sick: they came as blind, lepers, lame, the palsy, etc. Admitting their illnesses and desiring to be healed, they were all healed "according to THEIR faith."


Given the above evidence would you infer that Christ was a false god since many were healed and granted forgiveness through him. I hope not.


No, he chose whosoever would believe on him." That is mercy, grace, and justice.

[/QUOTE]
this shows you remain unteachable and have a hatred for the things most surely believed among us

 

The point I am making is God does no injustice in withholding something from those who do not deserve, or even desire, it. You keep saying God is fair, as if He should do as you, and even I think, He should. If He had decided to not save one sinner, He is still just, fair, and good. If He saved everyone, He is still just, fair, and good. If He had decided to only save the Jews and left the Gentiles out, He is still just, fair, and good.

Until you realize He has never truly tried(God never tries, He either does something or He does not) to save everyone. The Philistines were left out of Aaron's sin sacrifice for Israel, as they(Philistines) were too busy worshipping Dagon.

And please reread "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”[Lu. 19:10] He came to seek and TO SAVE. He did not say He would try to save them, monsieur. The the angel of the Lord declared to Joseph "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”[Matt. 1:21] Now, if His people die lost, then He did not save them from their sins, seeing they died in them. If He came to seek and save the lost and many of the lost died lost, He is a mighty poor Seeker and Saver, mon ami.

You, and many others, have done exactly what Bro. Paul Washer stated in his sermon "Repent and Believe", and have taken the supernatural out of salvation, by denying the supernatural gift of God-given faith.

 

DHK

These reprobates did NOT RECEIVE irresitable grace as they were reprobates.....reprobates ALWAYS RESIST... that is why they go to hell...

lets try this again.....

DHK...write on a whiteboard 100x

it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case

it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case


it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case

it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case


acts 7:51...non elect....

 

No...anyone who can read will see the truth.

it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case

You are simply not being truthful. The confession is well written, you cannot begin to answer it so you mock.

We can see by these bizarre posts...

Your authority is yourself....the confessions are loaded with scripture that you cannot abide by.

Standing against error is a good work:thumbs:

 

Iconoclast, what I find mindboggling is he hates the 1689 LBCF, but quotes a heretic such a John Walvoord, formerly of DTS.

 

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one," and, “In the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality.” It is just as Isaiah said previously: “Unless the Lord Almighty had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah.” What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[Rom. 9:21:33]

All of this passage is dealing with the elect and non-elect, which both came from the same lump of clay, Adam. God is calling His sheep out from amongst the goats via the gospel. Paul asked the question What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? He then asks another question What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? In a sense, he answered his first question with the second question. God is patient with the objects of His wrath to make sure His objects of His mercy are saved.

 

You are jumping all around and did not answer my question. You invoked Ro 9, which declares God forms the vessels of wrath, making them vessels of wrath by His own hand, giving the vessel no choice in the matter as to how God sees fit to form that person.

Now either God is the Potter making the vessels of wrath, or the vessels of wrath have a freewill to make themselves vessels of wrath by sinning. Which way do you want it? Your trying to have it both ways.

 

Have you ever been involved in sports--been a referee for a children's game of any sort? Would you consider favoring some children over others? Being fair to some and not fair to others? The quality of "fairness" is an attribute of God that he instills within us: "our conscience also bearing us witness." We are made in the image of God, and that is one of the ways we can know God. From the earliest of childhood years we hear children say "That is not fair." A sense of fairness is demanded even by children. It is an attribute of God. This attribute is tossed out the window by Calvinists and once again gives even the atheist the perception that God is a monster that would never be considered worthy of praise.

It is not a matter of trying. How ridiculous!
God provided a way for all to be saved. His blood was sufficient for all to be saved. He is the propitiation for the sins of the world. He is the Lamb of God slain for the sins of the world. He is not willing that any should perish. His will is that all should come to repentance. His will is that all should be saved.
--These are direct statements of scripture which cannot be swept under the rug, and yet the Calvinist continues to do so.

God has declared his will. The reason all men do not get saved is because they don't want to get saved. It is because of the hardness of their heart, the sinfulness of their own heart, the rebelliousness of their own heart--they say no to the gift of God which is eternal life. Instead of receiving Christ they reject him.
Irresistible Grace is a false doctrine. God does not force a person to be saved. He offers salvation to them. He does not "try" to save anyone. He offers salvation. It is up to mankind either to receive Christ or reject Christ. In the sovereignty of God, God has given man that choice, for God made man after his own image, and not the image of a puppet or robot.

I have never used this word "try." Why do you use it now. God has no need of "trying" to do anything. Hilarious!

There are two ways you can interpret that verse.
1. "His people," were the Jews, the people of Mary and Joseph. He was speaking to them and not you.
2. "His people," were those that believe, as he has said over and over again. The elect are those that believe. Those are the only two choices that make sense.

Salvation is of the Lord. Of course it is supernatural.
But one cannot ignore obedience to God's command to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," repeated hundreds of times over in the NT. Why deny sola fide. Why deny the invitation to "come unto him." Do you really think that just because one "believes on the Lord Jesus Christ," there is nothing supernatural that happens.
Rather when it is believed that regeneration produces faith, then Christianity becomes mysterious and mystical.

 

DHK

:laugh:....So let's look at this...what is possible here?

1]Jesus did not come to seek and save the elect?

2]The elect were not lost?

3] Someone other than the elect get saved?

4] In ezk 34 when God identifies the object of who he will come to seek and save...it was not His elect sheep?

You have such unique insights....I wonder why Paul said this?;

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory

Maybe he never got to read your posts:laugh:

Wrong again.....only the elect sheep are lost in such a way that they will be found. They were part of the Covenant of Redemption....the goats are right where they are supposed to be.

Yes they will....and we call these persons the ELECT:laugh:

not in scripture

 

So, the term "Irresistible Grace" does not mean "grace that cannot be resisted?" I knew you Calvinists like to change the meaning of words, Icon, but this is a doozy.

In other words, anyone who says God forces grace on someone is not a Christian in Icon's eyes. I had really hoped it wouldn't come to that, Icon.

In other words, "if only you were properly educated you wouldn't be such a silly Non-Calvinist."

 

DHK

The scripture does not teach this anywhere.

No...we understand these verses...and


He is not willing that any should perish....is not found in the bible no matter how many times you post it.

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:laugh: they are not a blank slate....they love sin is why they are not saved.

you got one:thumbsup:

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Not to those of us who know it firsthand.

This has been answered solidly...you just do not welcome it.

Thou shall call His name Jesus....for he shall offer salvation, and hope they get saved from sins...but he actually does not save His people from their sins...[DHK translation} is that it? he does not save His people from their sins....he just offers it generically?

This is the problem...Man is in control , in a world you believe satan rules.

Again...a denial of the effects of the fall;

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth

You did not use the word "try" but that is the false doctrine you espouse.
You claim he wants to save all men, etc...but all are not saved....as if...He tried...He did all he could do, but unless man add's to it , Man will not be saved.

We teach he actually accomplishes and saves all he intended to.

The elect believe because they were ordained to;
acts 13:48


48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

You say those words now, but you do not mean it the same as we do. You mock and call it mystical faith that we have:laugh:

No one ignores these verses

Told you so:laugh:

You say those words now, but you do not mean it the same as we do. You mock and call it mystical faith that we have

 

Sorry, bud. It's been a busy week and weekend...

The big difference between what you are asking and what we are discussing is the exact same thing I feel victim to earlier. You are trying to put yourself, or someone else, in the position to act as omnipotent, holy God. Since we are incapable of such position, then we cannot compare ourselves as such.

You guys keep saying that no sinner seeks after God, yet scripture says this:

Now, why would Paul say such a thing to a group of heathenistic Gentiles if God never intended for them to seek Him out? People have always been able to seek out God. Now, their earnestness might be questioned...and certainly no one can do anything of themselves to save themselves. But Paul is clear in this verse. Men can seek after God, and God is not far from them. It is your theology that states that not only is God far from those of the non-Elect, but He has erected an impassable barrier between the non-Elect and His grace.

For the record, you should be looking to "back up" what Jesus said and did by your life and actions; not looking for Jesus to "back [you] up." Also, you're conflating parables with soteriology. The parable, from what I can understand, is more concerned with Christian workers not thinking they should earn more than another Christian, simply because they have been working longer. I have the same reward after 13 years in the Ministry as someone who has spent 53 years doing the same thing. That's the point.

We aren't acting like He has to give everyone a chance. We're merely following the revelation we find in scripture that shows Christ saying He will draw all men unto Himself. We see that scripture shows God offering invitations to men and women that they must accept or reject. We do not find scripture to show that God has already determined the fates of all humanity. If that were the case, then what kind of God is He to offer these invitations, like in Deuteronomy, where He lays before Israel life and good, or death and evil, and implores them to choose life, if He never intends for so much of humanity to be able to keep them or answer them. In fact, it's not that God doesn't want humanity to repent; it's that He commanded all men everywhere to repent, but then He never gives them the gift of repentance. So in your theology God wants us to repent, but doesn't let us, then blames us.

God is just no matter what you or I think, SG. He would be just in letting us die in our sin. He would be just in saving everyone. But it's your side that has created this contradictory version of God in which God offers invites and commandments to men to that He never provides them the means to accept or keep, but then blames them for not keeping.

 

Does your Bible not contain 2 Peter 3:9, Icon?