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In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

Zexhariah 14:4 Nasb

Fulfilled at First Coming, or still waiting for his second coming?

 

DHK

DHK....My last post showed your having difficulty dealing with what scripture says...It said it in both the OT and the NT.
You cannot handle the figurative language in a way that the scripture offers it. To do so would require you to abandon your prophecy chart.

You have no reasonable answer to these verses.The premill guys skim over them..or invent the ever mysterious double fulfillment idea to escape the force of the verses as used. Most of these events have passed.You cannot accept that with your system..it would leave to many holes.

i do not even care for most of them..it was a randomsampling, because i know most understand the language of these passages as figurative so I did not even have to be careful....I do not know what most any of them believe....I look at the scripture..not the men.....

I do not care if it is a clown at the circus...if he offers good verses I will consider them....you are looking to escape the last post, rather than admit what you were shown.

I do not know for sure. I have been re-reading some postmill guys.I used to reject them as you are doing now....I used to be strongly premill....but I found problems with it....I still have cassettes from Dallas Theological seminary.....s.lewis Johnson, william macrae, etc. books by walvoord,pentecost,etc.

DHK...I know what they say and do....I used to be that way. I was told it alone was the truth...audited a few classes at a premill school BBC.Clark Summit PA....they say as you do..basically anyone who is not premill is heretical. They were wrong as you are now.

While I am undecided...I am trying to re-study each view and try to disprove it...I do like what the postmill writers say at this time....so..I look at how the other views attack the position...and how the postmill guys respond.

When I left the dispy premill camp...I thought I was by default...Amill...
but then I found they were similar to postmill, except more pessimistic looking forward.

I thought I was an ..optimistic amill:laugh: I am finding the postmill guys try and zero in on all the scripture more than the amill who speak and teach in more general terms.

Those who are critical of the postmill view believe it leaves the church un equipped to handle the coming "tribulation" they see it as pie in the sky. they look at the newspapers and say...this world cannot be converted.They do so based on texts that I now understand were used by the 1st century church to warn them of dangers back then...

I goes like this-
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils...

they explain that...only since 1948 are we in the "real 'last days" even though scripture says we have been in the last days since the incarnation....then they warn about the coming one world govt, the european common market,mark of the beast, they see the world as lost and dying, no hope, let's just snatch a few souls out of the fire as the rapture could be anytime now......they have the limestone for the new temple, they are making gulliotines to behead christians,
only the 144000 jewish evangelists will be kept in reserve to warn the left behind crowd.....microchips will soon be implanted in everyone, we will not be able to buy or sell,etc

How am I doing so far DHK? Does this make you feel better and more comfortable? of course ..i have not had to spend anytime looking at the figurative language and studying it...no..just a quick look at the dispensational chart , and my tribulation chart..and i am good to go!

So...let me say this. The Lord Jesus Christ is the blessed hope of His people. we are to serve him and occupy,until he comes. i do think the study of endtimes is important...however I see our maintask as Mt28, making disciples. and occupying this time and place for KING Jesus.

He is King now...ruling in the midst of his enemies.the rapture is the last day...the white throne judgement and the eternal state to follow.

Dan 9 was fulfilled by Jesus..not some future anti-christ.

The Rc church is an anti christ...but the anti christ was nero.

No special event needs to happen...just the spread of the gospel worldwide.

 

What chart? I didn't show you a chart?
You are so involved in figurative language that you make literal language figurative when it is not. Thus much of what you believe has led you off the path of truth.
What happened to the simple:
"Thy Word is lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path."
The Preterist doesn't believe that any more. Perhaps "lamp" must have some deep mysterious meaning, and "light" as well. Everything is so allegorical you have lost the true sense and meaning of the Bible.

Here are two things for you to seriously consider.
Get a copy of John MacArthur's "Charismatic Chaos." Go to chapter four. And study that chapter seriously. It is a very good chapter on Bible hermeneutics or the proper interpretation of the Bible. It is written in a very easy to understand method, as he does in much of his writings. You need to get down some serious principles of Biblical interpretation. It is important you do that.

Second, here is some history you need to realize. Have you ever heard of the book "The Fundamentals"?
Here is some information on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fundamentals
--These formative years, just before 1910 was a period of time when our leaders had battled the real enemy--modernism, liberalism--those who were denying the fundamentals of the faith. Of the 64 authors, they debated among them to consider putting premillenialism as one of those fundamentals, along with the virgin birth, the incarnation, the resurrection, etc. It was fundamental to them. To my knowledge there was only one that wasn't, and that was T.T. Shields, the Canadian pastor in Toronto, but still a fundamentalist. He was, for some reason, an amillennialist. But the others were not. They were all premillenialist. It was a foundational doctrine.

But you quote them anyway! Hey, why not throw in the Koran, the Book of Mormon, and a few others as well.
Maybe EGW has commented on those verses. Did you check her?
Surely the Mormons must have some resource materials on those portions. Did you check with them?
If you look at the scripture and not the men, why did you use the commentaries in the first place? You would have never come up with the absurd ideas without the help of others.

He offers the strange and vain imaginations of a philosopher--ideas that you would never come up with on your own--had you simply studied the Bible and allowed the Holy Spirit to teach you.

I read and studied the Bible. There has been only position that has ever made sense to me.
I read in many passages the glorious coming kingdom of Christ where He will sit on His throne and rule with a rod of iron on this earth for a thousand years. There will be harmony among nature. And the curse will be lifted. This scenario is repeated over and over and over again, throughout many many books, so that it cannot be denied.
Therefore:
To be an amillennialist is simply to deny scripture.
To be post millennial means that we live in the Kingdom, or at least that the earth is getting better and better. This is a denial of: common sense, of Scripture, of science, of anthropology, of reality, of the truth.
Christ has not come. We are not living in the Kingdom. To destroy the meaning of "thousand years" to "years ad infinitum." Of course with 2,000 years gone by since Christ you can't stick to one thousand years any more, so once again one is forced to allegorize scripture. If you can do it to one verse, why not allegorize the blood of Christ, His death on the cross? Maybe the Muslim is right? He really didn't die? It was all allegory! Right?

But what the Bible teaches is literal--a literal kingdom. I believed that before I went to college because the Bible taught it. I believed that before I ever heard of these other positions, simply because I read my Bible.

Any person who denies the Word of God is standing on the brink of heresy. Do you blame them?

Post-mill = A thousand is not a thousand.
Therefore a Millennium is not a Millennium (they don't believe in one)
Things now are getting better--a lie from Satan, and contrary to Scripture--there will be a great falling away from the truth.
Here is a good quote from Wikipedia

In other words postmillennialism and the social gospel go hand in hand.

 

In their own way they both deny a literal millennial kingdom. It is still unbelief.

Many post-mills don't believe in a Tribulation. So, yeah, that is a good way to handle the tribulation isn't it--just tear it out of your Bible.
If the world is getting better and better, how can there be a Tribulation? The position is not consistent.

You are wrong on a number of issues.
1. The last days began at Pentecost. Read carefully Peter's sermon.
2. There will be a one-world gov't. What it will consist of is speculation. I don't speculate. Many do. People given over to speculation often make fools of themselves (Harold Camping comes to mind)
3. There is a lost and dying world. It's population is about 7 billion. The Great Commission is given to us to reach them. If we don't their blood will be upon our hands and we will give account to God for that. The Lord never repealed the Great Commission.
4. Most definitely the rapture could be at any time. The last prayer of the Bible was not for the tribulation to come, but rather: "Even so, Come Lord Jesus." John was waiting for Christ--the rapture. We need to do all we can before he comes.
5. It doesn't say 144,000 "evangelists". It says that they will be sealed so that no one can harm them.
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
--Nothing about being an evangelist here.
--Much of your post is pure speculation: microchips, etc.
The true believer has nothing to worry about. He won't be faced with the antichrist or the mark of the beast. He won't be there. He will be raptured.

You say: "So...let me say this. The Lord Jesus Christ is the blessed hope of His people."
But you deny this with your Preterism. Christ already came. It was fulfilled in 70 A.D., along with all the other prophecies. Ask Grasshopper, or perhaps Luke. He (Christ) is not your blessed hope if he has already come. This is the heresy of Preterism.

And discipleship?? You can't disciple, unless you first have an evangelistic fervor. First evangelize, and then disciple. God gave to the church "evangelists." There was a reason for that.

You say:

You are deluded. You deny the Millennial Kingdom where it says Christ will rule for a thousand years on this earth from the Throne of David, with a rod of iron. The curse will be lifted. There will be perfect harmony in nature and between nature and man.
He is not ruling as King now.
Who is ruling?
Russia is ruling over the Ukraine. Hamas and Hezbollah are constantly attacking Israel. The world is a mess. If this is your idea of Christ, the Prince of Peace ruling, I don't want to be in your world. You serve a different Christ. The Christ I serve will bring perfect peace and harmony to this world, and from this world establish a perfect 1,000 year Kingdom.

 

Most A Mils/post mils have a real hard time dealing with the coming messianic Kingdom as Isaiah and Zechariah both described for us, so forced to spiritualize the text, and get stuff like the Gospel conquering lands going forth, satan bound insense free to promote jesus, ask North Korea/isalmic nations that!

God the father has promised a "Gift" to Jesus, in that he will return to reign, and ALL enemies shall be put under him, and ALL kingdoms of this age subjection tohis Kingdom!

 

DHK

Ok...you have to make it about me rather than deal with the scripture...I understand...we can do that if that is what you want...you got it.

Because you cannot grasp either position does not mean they are in unbelief. it just means you are in no position to be able to tell the difference.

.

Wrong again DHK...they know the tribulation came upon Jerusalem already in 70ad
To attempt to smear all postmill writers because you cannot properly handle the figurative language is to admit defeat.

They explain how and why the tribulation happened to fulfill the covenant curses upon that Christ rejecting nation...you know nothing of that,,,so again you falsely attack these men.

This is a biblically ignorant comment..here is why-

21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,

22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

The kingdom goes forth in this fallen world...winning one soul at a time.The unsaved resist.

Peter had a fine sermon...however;
1 In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets,

2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

In the incarnation the sending of the Son,His person and work defines the last days.....it was the last days of the jewish theocracy...the beginning of the Church under Jesus headship.

Jesus said it was the last day

Of course it does'nt but you do not know your premill books either then:laugh:

of course that part of my post was...because it was the nonsense premill writers offered instead of sound bible teaching.

more premill fantasy

{QUOTE]You say: "So...let me say this. The Lord Jesus Christ is the blessed hope of His people."
But you deny this with your Preterism[/QUOTE].

More ignorance on display, or intentional false witness.You do not know the difference between full preterism and partial preterism....so again you are clueless. Find out the difference then we can talk....You will not find any post where i say the second coming has already happened...so you try and frame me...when i do not hold to any form of full preterism.

Again...you still cannot handle what i offered you a few nights ago...you had no response...so you think that by attempting to put me personally it will avoid that issue....think again.:laugh:

., along with all the other prophecies.[/QUOTE]

Evidently you are to lazy to take the time and correctly distinguish the positions.Your blending them together does not help at all.

A total strawman as i do not believe that at all.Nice try...lame ....but you can study and try again next time.

Another foolish attack showing you do not understand the positions.

from your pov perhaps....but you could not answer the verses so well so i suppose you are out of bullets.

No...just understand the nature of the kingdom ...you do not.

it does not say the rule is on earth in rev 20 where it mentions the term 1000 years...you insert that.....he rules from heaven right now

This is horrible....if you were on the mission field denying the reign of King Jesus...you would be recalled.

Jesus

Indeed you are not ..by your own testimony...