Featured Who are, "Those thou hast given to me..."

I have Scripture, you don't. God works all things after the counsel of his will. And guess what, they are still conceiving the sin, it's only when God allows it and only when it's part of the plan of God as even you noted above when the Jews couldn't kill Jesus until it was God's timing.

Yes, it was God' command that Jesus would die a certain time.

Could you quote where Calvin said God "causes sin"

 

Doubt that Calvin woul dhave said that God directly causes Sin to happen, for he cannot tempt others, nor is he tempted to sin!

he must have been relating to the concept that He caused/predeterming what the response to the Sin would be!

That in case of the fall, he had preordained the Cross before thefall even happened, not in response to it!

 

That is not what Calvin said...that is not what he meant. Calvin is trying to maintain both....He is CLEARLY mainitaining that God is BOTH the author of sin, and yet, at the same time not to be blamed. Winman has quoted him clearly. Most confessional Calvinists in our modern era will admit no such thing...But it is logically required by their system. Hoeksema clearly admits that a "double-predestination" is required by their logic. And A.W. Pink will clearly state that God simply does not love all of mankind. Pink admits that God has no "Love" of the sinner. Calvinists are left with two choices:

1.) Admit the logical consequences of their Theology and defend it as such...as Calvin clearly did. "Shut up, and Who art thou oh, man"....to question...and blah blah....God is righteouss, despite the fact that he "authored" said sin...Hoeksema admits as much when he (at least) promotes "double-predestination" and the (apparently) Godlike A.W. Pink makes no claim whatsoever that God "loves" the non-believer. Pink clearly states that God no more "loves" the non-elect than the man in the moon....but most Cals simply refuse to aknowledge that....They take option two.
2.) God has (Sovereignly) ordained sin, and yet is not the author of sin. God has elected only certain ones to Salvation....and "passed-over" others...(You are NEVER allowed to ask how they became so reprobate as to Never "Will" their own salvation) That was God's ordination and God's alone.....and you are Goldlessly wicked to ask "why?" or "how?" after all..."who art thou"....to question the truth of Calvinism...a mere reprobate...and a wicked sinner, accept and believe it as true despite the obvious contradiction...They will appeal to Arminian sensibilities all day long..and dance around the meaning of words.

 

He did, numerous times actually....you simly refuse to believe that Calvin said what he said...re-read what Win posted...Calvin did not shy from it. He said it clear as day...You are appealing to your Arminian sensibilities to refuse to believe it...but Calvin clearly said it, and he has already posted where..

 

Most of what I have read affirms that God predestinated the sinners that were to be elected by Him and placed into Christ by His Sovereign Will, and that h e"passed" over the rest to do as they desired in their sin natures!

 

Yeshua....One question...if you are not attempting to be obtuse...Where did their "sin nature" come from?...was that the result of the curse? Who demanded that the "sin-nature" would be incurrably passed-down from one generation to the next?

 

Sin nature came as all of us died in the physical/spiritual death of Adam! he represents fallen sinner, while jesus as SecondAdam represents saints before the father!

 

could you please quote where Calvin said that. What winman quoted never said that at all. But maybe I missed it. So please quote it if he actually said that God causes people to sin.

 

You didn't miss anything. Calvin said that the devil and the ungodly cannot CONCEIVE mischief (sin) unless God commands it. That is as clear as it gets, you simply deny it.

Here is another quote of Calvin's;

Does this suit you? Calvin is very clear that God does not simply permit sin, he authors it.

 

ok, so Calvin did not say that God causes sin. You said he said it but yet no quote of him saying it has been produced.
You have "Calvin said that the devil and the ungodly cannot CONCEIVE mischief (sin) unless God commands it." which doesn't mean that God causes the sin. So I'm assuming you simply made it up. I'm not really concerned if Calvin believed it or not. I'm more concerned with the Bible and what it teaches.

 

I know you and how you play with words. You will not be content unless Calvin actually used the word "caused" in connection with sin. I know how you operate.

OK, here is Calvin actually saying God causes sin.

Calvin believed God was the primary CAUSE of ALL THINGS, including sin, yet he also argues that God could not be held responsible. He said this was a mystery that we cannot hope to understand and should merely accept and never question.

You will still play games and deny, it is what you do.

 

You have evaded the question....WHY is the sin of Adam passed down/ascribed to all future genterations? Why did ALL of us die? ...This is either somehow an uncontrolable and natural result of what Adam did....or it is subject to God's decree that all of Adam's faults should be ascribed to his future generations...Calvinists MUST answer this. When they do....I will possibly give a What-not about what they think soteriologically..untill they have a coherent notion of sin itself...they have no coherent notion of salvation from said sin....Winman, at least believes we are condemned because of our sin....Calvinism condemns us because of some random individual named Adam....I have sinned as he did...thus, I have no problem answering that I am guilty, but am I guilty because of what I did, or because of what he did?? Would I confidently tell the Almighty to his face that to condemn me for the direct disobedience of another that he is unjust and wrong? Yes...I would.....I am made so much in God's image that I understand the basic notions of justice just as he does. He is God, and he made me with those same sensibilities...Calvinists act as though I was made in the image of Satan...The Scriptures differ, I was not....I was made in the image of God. I know justice from injustice.. God made me thus...and so does he.

 

Do you have to insult at every turn? That's not Christlike at all. thanks for the quotes. that's all I asked. But instead of doing it at first, you choose to insult. Shows a lot about you. The problem is that you have been taught to hate on Calvinist and it's sad that anyone would teach such a thing.

 

Calvin has clearly ascribed all sin as being the direct result of God's decree...Winman has clearly demonstrated that Calvin believed such...If you disagree with him...fine. Stop pretending that Win has not proved his case though. Calvin himself, at least, clearly believed that God was somehow BOTH "causal" and not to be "blamed" for sin and wickedness...He has also been clearly quoted by Win as having no defense for how that is possible except to appeal to mystery or authority..or to say something to the effect of "Who art thou, oh man...to deny the authority of all Calvinist dogma..." as Calvinists do. "Shut-up" and submit to all we have claimed...Calvin has clearly said what he said....Win has posted it accurately...You are forgetting that we Arminians can read, and it is insulting.

 

I insult you because you play word games. You know you do this. Do you really think people are stupid and fooled by these games? I assure you that no one is. I certainly am not.

Look, Calvin believed God caused sin. He believed that Satan or men could not even conceive an evil thought unless God commanded it, just as God commanded the Universe and it sprang into existence.

Satan couldn't have rebelled against God unless God commanded it in Calvin's view, the very thought would never occur to him according to Calvin. He believed the same for men, unless God commanded it, men would be unable to even imagine or conceive sin. This is what he wrote.

That said, Calvin also denied that God could be guilty of sin. He couldn't explain why. He admitted it was an absurd and an irreconcilable contradiction. He wrote it was a "secret" that belonged to God and men should not inquire into it.

But he absolutely believed God caused ALL THINGS, including sin.

And this is what all Calvinists do. Like Calvin, they believe God caused all things, but then contradict themselves and say God cannot be guilty of sin. Absurd. Nonsensical.

If a man hires a hit man to kill his wife, is he guilty of sin? Of course. The courts will often plea bargain with the hired killer to convict the husband who was the first and primary cause of the sin. The husband, though he did not actually commit the crime will often receive the harsher sentence and rightfully so, he is the one who put the crime into action.

Satan is not God's "hit man" who goes around doing God's dirty deeds for him, and neither are we. Satan and men have autonomous free wills and commit sin of themselves. Does God allow this? Sometimes yes, and sometimes no. God killed Pharaoh and prevented him from killing Moses and the escaping Jews. So God does not always allow evil.

God did not murder Jesus as some have said here. He offered him to be a sacrifice for our sins, and Jesus willingly gave himself as our sacrifice. God did not cause the Jews to kill Jesus, they had tried to kill him several times before. Satan tried to kill Jesus when he tempted him to leap off the temple. Satan and the Jews already wanted to kill Jesus, God prevented them from doing so until the Passover. At this proper time God ALLOWED the Jews to kill Jesus as our sacrifice.

Calvin was wrong, God never causes anyone to sin.

 

I never play word games. never. again, you insult. Even if I did play word games, it wouldnt' be right for you to insult.


Look, Calvin believed God caused sin. He believed that Satan or men could not even conceive an evil thought unless God commanded it, just as God commanded the Universe and it sprang into existence.

ok. I don't care anything about Calvin. I was simply asking for a quote. But as usual you show your unchristlike character and insult. You lie about me and say I play word games. But you can't quote one place where I've ever played any word games. You need to stop hating Calvinist. Calvinist are believers. You disagree, but that doesn't mean you should insult other believers in Christ. If you don't believe they are believers, you shouldn't insult them either and should be giving them the gospel. Either way, you like to resort to insulting others.

 

Winman quoted something later, but not as of this post. I never said you couldn't read. What winman originally quoted did not say that Calvin believed God causes people to sin. I simply asked for a quote.

A result of God's decree doesn't equal cause. God works ALL things after the counsel of his will. Everything. Just like the murder of Jesus was actually the saving of the world. It was always God's plan that Jesus would die and that the Jews would kill him. It happened exactly as God wanted it to happen. Winman actually pointed this out in that the Jews couldn't' kill Jesus until God's appointed time.

Does God cause people to sin? No. But there is no sin that happens that God couldn't stop. Sin is part of God's plan on this earth. He will defeat sin once and for all one day. We must be careful not to thing that sin happens and God doesn't want it to happen. Sure, God wants us to obey, but he has allowed man to sin and it's all part of his plan. Men sin as an act of rebellion against God and mean it for evil. God meant it for good. (Genesis 50:20)

btw, are you ok. You seem a little off tonight. You have always come across as nice, but tonight it looks like somebody cross you the wrong way.

 

I disagree, you play word games ALL THE TIME. I had to find a quote where Calvin actually used the word CAUSE in connection with sin before you were satisfiied, even though he plainly said the devil and men cannot conceive of sin unless God commands it.

Yes, and this is a perfect example of the word games you play.

I insult you because you insult people's intelligence. You really believe yourself very clever and able to fool people with your games. The only one you are fooling is yourself. If your doctrine were true, no such games would be necessary.

You did it right here in this thread. You have comprehension skills, you know what Calvin said.

I don't hate Calvinists, but I do hate Calvinism. If I hated you I would let you continue in this gross error.

Again, I insulted you because you would not admit that Calvin believed God caused sin when it was plain from his quotes that he did. I had to actually provide a quote where Calvin used the word "cause" in connection with sin. This is the word games you play.

Calvinists are believers, but they believe a false doctrine that makes God the author of sin, even if they deny it. Calvin was bold though, and he said God was the AUTHOR.

And I know your response, "No Calvinist says God is the author of sin". Again, word games. If God CAUSES all things that come to pass, then he CAUSES sin, because sin certainly comes to pass.

What kills me is that an intelligent fellow like you could believe such obvious contradiction. I can't figure out why anyone would want to do that, I really can't.

 

JBH,
Do not think that team Jihad is really doing any real study here....they are using sites like this one who seek to do a hatchet job on Calvin or anyone else who believes the truth. Notice the writer does not post the whole quote, just cuts it all up....
http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Complaints/ac_sin.html


Calvin writes: “Everything is controlled by God’s secret purpose, and nothing can happen except by his knowledge and will.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Bk. 1, Ch. 16, Sect. 3, emphasis mine)


Calvin writes: “What we must prove is that single events are ordered by God and that every event comes from his intended will. Nothing happens by chance.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 4, emphasis mine)


Calvin writes: “When he uses the term permission, he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of everything, because nothing happens without his order of permission.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 8, emphasis mine)


Calvin writes: “He has plenty of reasons for comfort as he realises that the devil and all the ungodly are reined in by God, so that they cannot conceive, plan or carry out any crime, unless God allows it, indeed commands it. They are not only in bondage to him, but are forced to serve him. It is the Lord’s prerogative to enable the enemy’s rage and to control it at will, and it is in his power to decide how far and how long it may last, so that wicked men cannot break free and do exactly what they want....” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch.17, Sect. 10, emphasis mine)







Calvin writes: “First, it must be observed that the will of God is the cause of all things that happen in the world; and yet God is not the author of evil.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169, emphasis mine)






Calvin writes: “For myself, I take another principle: Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God. This may seem paradoxical at first sight to some....” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169, emphasis mine)



Calvin writes: “Further what I said before is to be remembered, that since God manifests His power through means and inferior causes, it is not to be separated from them.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.170, emphasis mine)






Calvin writes: “But where it is a matter of men’s counsels, wills, endeavours, and exertions, there is greater difficulty in seeing how the providence of God rules here too, so that nothing happens but by His assent and that men can deliberately do nothing unless He inspire it.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, pp.171-172, emphasis mine)
Calvin writes: “Indeed, the ungodly pride themselves on being competent to effect their wishes. But the facts show in the end that by them, unconsciously and unwillingly, what was divinely ordained is implemented.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.173, emphasis mine)
Calvin writes: “Does God work in the hearts of men, directing their plans and moving their wills this way and that, so that they do nothing but what He has ordained?” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.174, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “For the man who honestly and soberly reflects on these things, there can be no doubt that the will of God is the chief and principal cause of all things.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.177, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “But of all the things which happen, the first cause is to be understood to be His will, because He so governs the natures created by Him, as to determine all the counsels and the actions of men to the end decreed by Him.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.178, emphasis mine)








Calvin writes: “But it is quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.176, emphasis mine)





Calvin writes: “But the objection is not yet resolved, that if all things are done by the will of God, and men contrive nothing except by His will and ordination, then God is the author of all evils.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179, emphasis mine)

Calvin states: “They again object, Were not men predestinated by the ordination of God to that corruption which is now held forth as the cause of condemnation? If so, when they perish in their corruptions they do nothing else than suffer punishment for that calamity, into which, by the predestination of God, Adam fell, and dragged all his posterity headlong with him. Is not he, therefore, unjust in thus cruelly mocking his creatures? I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself. But it does not forthwith follow that God lies open to this charge.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, section 4, emphasis mine)


Calvin writes: “Thinking that the difficulty here may be resolved by a single word, some are foolish enough serenely to overlook what occasions the greatest ambiguity; namely, how God may be free of guilt in doing the very thing that He condemns in Satan and the reprobate and which is to be condemned by men.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179, emphasis mine)


Calvin writes: “We learn that nothing happens but what seems good to God. How then is God to be exempted from the blame to which Satan with his instruments is liable?” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.180, emphasis mine)



Team Jihad delights in ascribing sin and blame to God rather than to man, because of their golden calf of free will. Your instincts were correct JBH.:wavey::thumbs::thumbs: