Megachurch files for bankruptcy

[Salty]

Maybe they should be booking more weddings?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

This is a shame. This is all about greed and mismanagement. They need to sell off everything, all buildings, property, and holdings, to pay off the creditors and if that does not cover everything then the members need to dip into their own pockets to cover the rest. At least they could show even though they were irresponsible in handling money they are honorable in paying their debts.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of bankruptcy and I believe that for a church to do it is an extremely bad witness to the world.

On the other hand, I can't help but wonder whether or not this particular church being in this situation isn't God's way of exposing some much bigger problems.

 

[Jerome]

The Baptist Foundation of Arizona bankruptcy dwarfs this one.

Of course, there weren't Southern Baptist "bigger problems" that God was trying to expose, were there?

 

[go2church]

Why should the members have to pay for the ignorance and ineptness of church leadership? They entrusted the leadership with their money. They were not irresponsible, the leadership was!

That's what it means to be a church member. If you don't want to pay the piper don't become a member.

 

[webdog]

That's what it means to be a church member. If you don't want to pay the piper don't become a member.

So using your logic, if my son commits a murder, as a member of my family we should all pay for his crime. Also, using your same faulty logic, any time any member commits a crime or is irresponsible it falls back on the other members as well. Not a real incentive to "go2church".

I doubt anywhere in any membership agreement it states members are responsible for the irresponsibility of other members and poor decisions of leadership.

 

[freeatlast]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of bankruptcy and I believe that for a church to do it is an extremely bad witness to the world.

On the other hand, I can't help but wonder whether or not this particular church being in this situation isn't God's way of exposing some much bigger problems.

There is no doubt that this church is having to hang out its dirty laundry, but the sad thing it reflects on all who name the name of Christ. The best thing that they could do is pay their debts even if it means selling all they have, and yes the members and clergy should have to pony up out of their pockets if needed to pay all. I can see where bankruptcy is necessary at times, but only to keep the creditors at bay until the person filing the bankruptcy can pay down the debt. It should never be used to shirk the responsibility of paying.

 

[webdog]

There is no doubt that this church is having to hang out its dirty laundry, but the sad thing it reflects on all who name the name of Christ. The best thing that they could do is pay their debts even if it means selling all they have, and yes the members and clergy should have to pony up out of their pockets if needed to pay all. I can see where bankruptcy is necessary at times, but only to keep the creditors at bay until the person filing the bankruptcy can pay down the debt. It should never be used to shirk the responsibility of paying.

Actualy, since this local church is just part of the larger universal Church, why don't you take the lead and send in your check first? When you came to Christ you automatically became a member of the Church...so "pony up".

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

When I first responded to this thread and said that I could be in a megachurch, I was responding out of the tummy. I am afraid that my feeling about not wanting to be in a megachurch was based on what so many folks do with their church membership -- forego mission for comfort level. For that I do repent.

Only yesterday I met with the outreach team of the church where I am a member, and someone spoke about our needing to know who has moved into our neighborhood. I thought about the old technique of a religious census. Immediately the team members stipulated that they would NOT do that! Comfort levels again instead of mission.

I can agree that large churches can accomplish more than small ones, but I do fear the sacrifice of intimacy, formation, and development. In a large church people can just warm pews and not participate in hands-on work. But I do see that in a small church everyone spins their wheels in maintenance tasks, not mission. When I was a pastor, I felt my congregation was right-sized ... large enough to accomplish a variety of things, but not unwieldy and not burdened by huge investments for staff and buildings.

I accept my chastizing; but cannot quite agree with the commentator who said that objections to megachurch are wrong because they are not Biblically based. We are in an institutional setting that is quite different from that of the First Century, and so forms of practice will have to be different.

 

[freeatlast]

Actualy, since this local church is just part of the larger universal Church, why don't you take the lead and send in your check first? When you came to Christ you automatically became a member of the Church...so "pony up".

Like I said this stuff is all spiritually discerned. There is no way of explaining this to you.

 

[preachinjesus]

I can agree that large churches can accomplish more than small ones, but I do fear the sacrifice of intimacy, formation, and development.

Not to get too far off the OP but I challenge this statement. If anything there are more resources and targeted opportunities for growth, fellowship, and development in large church settings.

Take the church where I get to serve, it would classify (by some) in a mega category. We have 85% participation in small groups, sent 1,000+ people on missions trips in the last year, and have baptized over 200 a year for the past five years.

We have large, medium, and small worship gatherings as part of our ministry.

Is it a perfect system? Absolutely not. There are pros and cons to the whole thing, but it is not as you have described it above.

In a large church people can just warm pews and not participate in hands-on work. But I do see that in a small church everyone spins their wheels in maintenance tasks, not mission.

Now I would say that ratio wise there are just as many people in smaller churches sitting on their hands as in large churches.

When I was a pastor, I felt my congregation was right-sized ... large enough to accomplish a variety of things, but not unwieldy and not burdened by huge investments for staff and buildings.

People are more important than process and parts. If you are reaching people you will have resources to grow. You have to change how you communicate to people at different levels.

Again there are challenges, good things, and drawbacks...but that goes for all models.

 

[webdog]

Like I said this stuff is all spiritually discerned. There is no way of explaining this to you.

So quit beating around the bush, this is the second post to me in two days...are you saying I'm not a believer? Yes or no will do just fine.

This is common sense, not spiritually discernable...something you seem to lack.

 

[glfredrick]

Of note, "big churches" did not just appear on the horizon that way. They GOT that way by growing!

Why do churches grow? Two reasons that I can see (pragmatically). First, they are not church at all, and grow because they are places of entertainment akin to concerts and public venues like sporting events, productions, etc. Second, because they are faithful to the Scriptures and are making disciples.

We have some mega churches in each category. Guess which ones are filing for bankruptcy?

The membership covenant at the "big church" I attend is much more stringent than that I've found in the majority of medium and small churches that I've either led, been a part of, or known of (in excess of 1000 due to my work in the Graham School). People who do not attempt, in good faith, to live out the conditions of the covenant they agreed to when becoming a member will be visited by church elders and disciplined as befits the Scriptural mandates. Two were removed from membership in our last church meeting. One was restored after repentance. Our system is not just lip service!

Read our membership covenant here: http://sojournchurch.com/wp-content/uploads/Covenant-Constitution-9.7.2010.pdf

 

[RAdam]

Church discipline is becoming increasingly rare. Nice to see it being practiced.

 

[freeatlast]

Church discipline is becoming increasingly rare. Nice to see it being practiced.

I have to agree with you on this. The problem is that most churches have let things go so far that to start the discipline process they would have to remove most deacons and pastors right from the start, not to mention those in the congreations.

 

[freeatlast]

Of note, "big churches" did not just appear on the horizon that way. They GOT that way by growing!

Why do churches grow? Two reasons that I can see (pragmatically). First, they are not church at all, and grow because they are places of entertainment akin to concerts and public venues like sporting events, productions, etc. Second, because they are faithful to the Scriptures and are making disciples.

We have some mega churches in each category. Guess which ones are filing for bankruptcy?

The membership covenant at the "big church" I attend is much more stringent than that I've found in the majority of medium and small churches that I've either led, been a part of, or known of (in excess of 1000 due to my work in the Graham School). People who do not attempt, in good faith, to live out the conditions of the covenant they agreed to when becoming a member will be visited by church elders and disciplined as befits the Scriptural mandates. Two were removed from membership in our last church meeting. One was restored after repentance. Our system is not just lip service!

Read our membership covenant here: http://sojournchurch.com/wp-content/uploads/Covenant-Constitution-9.7.2010.pdf

I read the membership covenant and while I agree with it in principle it did come across as being vague. That is not an accusation. Without diclosging any private inforamtion can you give me an example of what someone is usually disciplined for even if it is a private message to me?

 

[webdog]

So quit beating around the bush, this is the second post to me in two days...are you saying I'm not a believer? Yes or no will do just fine.

This is common sense, not spiritually discernable...something you seem to lack.

freeatlast, you have responded to posts after mine...are you going to answer the question, or are you going to continue the cowardly veiled attacks?

 

[go2church]

So using your logic, if my son commits a murder, as a member of my family we should all pay for his crime. Also, using your same faulty logic, any time any member commits a crime or is irresponsible it falls back on the other members as well. Not a real incentive to "go2church".

I doubt anywhere in any membership agreement it states members are responsible for the irresponsibility of other members and poor decisions of leadership.

Don't be ridiculous. Perhaps you should go back to church membership 101. There is a reason most churches have business meetings and keep minutes and elect committees and officers, it is because they are a corporation.

Being a church member is actually a legal situation. As churches are now mostly incorporated, when you join you are joining in the benefits and responsibilities associated with the goings on of that church, you are joining the corporation. If a church declares bankruptcy the members are on the hook, as it were, for whatever is due.

This is what created such a legal mess in Arizona. There were those wanting to go after the various Southern Baptist churches in Arizona to get at their money and repay everyone. It was ultimately ruled that the churches were independent and not responsible for the Foundation even though they were associated with them.

I will grant you that it is likely the church is organized in such a way that the members aren't going to be held accountable, but that was done not to shield them from any problems, but to maintain control over the finances and shield the goings on from the church members, if they even have such a thing.

If not, the membership best pay attention, because the bankruptcy procedures will leave no potential stone unturned looking to make the creditors whole, even from the membership role.

 

[webdog]

Don't be ridiculous. Perhaps you should go back to church membership 101. There is a reason most churches have business meetings and keep minutes and elect committees and officers, it is because they are a corporation.

We don't have this unbiblical church model...we are Elder led, as the Scriptures teach. Church democracy is not biblical, hence "business meetings", "committees", "officers" are not made up of the congregation.

Being a church member is actually a legal situation. As churches are now mostly incorporated, when you join you are joining in the benefits and responsibilities associated with the goings on of that church, you are joining the corporation. If a church declares bankruptcy the members are on the hook, as it were, for whatever is due.

No volunteer of a non profit organization is held accountable for the organization's actions. That is a fact. If the March Of Dimes were to file bankruptcy the employees and volunteers would not be on the hook for the debt.

 

[rbell]

I have to agree with you on this. The problem is that most churches have let things go so far that to start the discipline process they would have to remove most deacons and pastors right from the start, not to mention those in the congreations.

Overgeneralize much?

You remind me of Elijah, who thought he alone was serving God.

God had to remind him that there were many who had not "bowed the knee to Baal."

 

[freeatlast]

freeatlast, you have responded to posts after mine...are you going to answer the question, or are you going to continue the cowardly veiled attacks?

I have answered you many times but yuo still do not understand. Here are your words.
"This is common sense, not spiritually discernable...something you seem to lack."

No child of God seeks answers to this life simply by common sense. That is how the world lives. The things of God are foolishness to the lost so they use common sense. Those born again find their answers through spiritual discernment.