charles_creech78
New Member
I am saying he is not a child of God!
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Another question for Calvinists part2
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charles_creech78
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Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter(GOD) power over the clay (US), of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter(GOD) power over the clay (US), of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
So - by your words, those who have no free will in regards to their salvation, have free will to do things contrary to what God wants them to do, and must be chastised for it?
There are many things done, by our own rebellious free will, that are against the will of God. God allows it in his permissive will, just as he allowed David and others to have multiple wives. But that wasn't his perfect will. God allows us to sin. We aren't perfect. It is not his will for us to sin. John writes in 1John 2:1, "My little children I write unto you that you sin not." That is God's will. Is it accomplished? No. For that reason John continues, "But if any of you do sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and he is the propitiation for our sin."
We have an out. Christ provided one. He paid the penalty for our sins. It is not God's will for us to sin. We sin by our own free will. We choose to do so. God does not force our hand. We are the ones responsible for it. And if we do, we can go to Christ who is our advocate, and the one who has paid the price for the penalty of our sin.
Has that happened? The Bible says that God's will is that none should perish but that all should come to repentance. If that is God's will why isn't God's will being accomplished in this world, especially since (as you advocate) man has no free will and God is completely in control and sovereign. Why isn't his will being done? Please explain.
And it is messed up isn't it? The free will of man has interfered with "the will of God" that all men should come to repentance. Isn't that right? Will all men come to repentance? No. Why? Because man has chosen of his own free will to sin and rebel against a sovereign God.
Look at it this way. It is a parent's will (perhaps) that all of his children enter into the Lord's service. But if they don't, and even if one doesn't trust Christ, is the parent's will being done? No. Why? Because the children have been exercising their free will. They (like us) are not robots. We can teach them the best we can, but in the end they will make their own decisions. One cannot force a person to trust Christ. You can't and God doesn't. He simply knows ahead who will and won't trust him.
Because God has not chosen to exercise his direct power over all of his creation. He gives all who seek light, more light that they might believe.
Others who resist the truth he turns them over to darkness.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Romans 1:18-20)
The rest of the verses in this same chapter are even more enlightening.
God gave them up; God gave them up...
In other words God does not always rule what he creates.
Robert Snow
New Member
Your memory needs refreshing!
In your opening post, you said:
I responded:
I even provided a Scripture stating this fact:
I again await your response which should mention that your opening post was incorrect.
The bible does not say this anywhere,unless you do not look at the context.
God's will is always accomplished.
charles_creech78
New Member
I am saying God love us because he chastises us. Our will as Christian should be to do the will of God. Why would God want his child to do something contrary to his will? If you are doing something contrary to his will then you are not a son and you surely are not being chastised. We get chastised for doing something wrong. Why is it wrong if God gave us free will?Free will to me is that you can do what you want to. If that is the case then why does he chastise his children? What is the point of chastising us if we have free will? To any of you which one of you would want to be chastised? But if you are truly saved then you would not want to do what you want. You would have no desire but to do the will of God. But we are in the flesh to and we do things that are not pleasing to God and he corrects us as a son to pull us back to his will. I am glad that God corrects me and I am glad that I don't have free will to do thing I used to do. I have a anchor to my soul unmoveable ! What does a anchor do? Thank God for that Anchor.
charles_creech78
New Member
Then give me scripture that he can't do all thing. You just gave me scripture that he cannot lie. I gave you scripture that he can do all things.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
Also:
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4)
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Grace&Truth
New Member
I don't think you can make that claim based on the context of Rom. 13:2, which is referring to our obeying the government [or laws] which will bring damnation in the sense of judgement for the breaking of the law.I don't see how this verse can prove that one who does not obey the government is a son or not a son....am I missing something
Grace&Truth
New Member
The context of Heb. 12 does not back up what you said here [underlined]. It does not say that one who does not do God's Will is not a son it only says that when one does not he will be chastised.
Herein lies the problem [underlined]. Free will only means that we have the ability to make decisions contrary to God's Will.
I wish this ways true, but as you mentioned we are still in the flesh, therefore we still have the ability to do our own will.
charles_creech78
New Member
You're talking in circles, sir, without actually answering the question.
If I read your posts correctly, you say:
1) We have no free will until God saves us
2) We then have free will to resist God
3) But if we resist God, we're not His children, and therefore not saved.
Your first point was that we have no free will to resist God, so if we resist Him after we're saved, but we're not saved because we're resisting Him; how then could we have obtained free will to resist Him?
charles_creech78
New Member
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.I don't think you can make that claim based on the context of Rom. 13:2, which is referring to our obeying the government [or laws] which will bring damnation in the sense of judgement for the breaking of the law.I don't see how this verse can prove that one who does not obey the government is a son or not a son....am I missing something
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. I don't know how that is confusing!
Can God make another God? Can he create another being exactly like himself?
Grace&Truth
New Member
Its not, but you are....you give scripture but do not clarify what you are saying. This verse has nothing to do with salvation or eternal damnation. You made a statement based on this verse, but did not clarify why you used it or how you believed it applied, that is why I have asked questions.
charles_creech78
New Member
Let me try this again: Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.I don't think you can make that claim based on the context of Rom. 13:2, which is referring to our obeying the government [or laws] which will bring damnation in the sense of judgement for the breaking of the law.I don't see how this verse can prove that one who does not obey the government is a son or not a son....am I missing something
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. I don't know how that is confusing! Look at what scripture you said referring to obeying government and laws? You said Rom13:2 is referring to obeying government and laws. The verse is not referring to government or law it is referring to God and his power. Rom13:1 For there is no other power but of God. They are resisting Gods power in this verse! How can this be talking about a child of God? Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. there is no condemnation in a child of God so how can they receive damnation? It is talking about the unsaved world resisting God power in this verse! The saved cannot be condemned because we are chastised! 1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. I am sorry I should have gave you more verses then I did.
charles_creech78
New Member
What is your point?
Grace&Truth
New Member
Please don't yell at me [noted by the large bold letters]. And please reread it. The context is referring to those in authority over us and more specificly the government....and then it is saying that all power is given by God....in other words God puts [or allows] all those who are in authority over us for our good and we are to obey them as we would God [however we are to obey God rather than man if they disagree]. Again this is not referring to salvation or eternal damnation.
charles_creech78
New Member
Where in that verse is it talking about government and law? Show me! What kind of damnation is it? If it is not eternal?
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