Weren't they going for DETC accreditation?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Lowest Price accredited theology degree by mail?
- Thread starter jprieto
- Start date
- Status
Weren't they going for DETC accreditation?
Yep. They are still working on it.
There are six main regional accrediting associations in the US that comprise the highest or "cadillac" of accrediting. Everything else is far below that level.
For years there has been attempts at accrediting by "bible college" or "TRAC" or the like and they are weak and anemic in every area of comparison.
I would opt for a school/university with accrediting by one of the 6, not the lesser wannabes. My decision. (I have earned degrees from schools that are North Central -one of the 6 - and from schools that are TRACS and one even affiliated with a foreign group. Don't settle for the lesser program and [often] mickey mouse accrediting)
For years there has been attempts at accrediting by "bible college" or "TRAC" or the like and they are weak and anemic in every area of comparison.
I would opt for a school/university with accrediting by one of the 6, not the lesser wannabes. My decision. (I have earned degrees from schools that are North Central -one of the 6 - and from schools that are TRACS and one even affiliated with a foreign group. Don't settle for the lesser program and [often] mickey mouse accrediting)
Dr. Bob,
As usual you are right on target. Why some of these younger (and older) "hands" want to take a shortcut or "do the cheap" I will never know. I have argued on this medium until I am blue in the face over this very issue. People would not even, for a moment, consider going to a doctor with a "mail order" or "unaccredited" degree. It is not unlike we are doing the most important work in the world.
I just wish that all who read this section of the Bb would give credence to our words.
I was wondering if any of these same people would want to have an "off shore" medical degreed doctor to do their brain surgery or one who had studied at Harvard and who had done their residency at Mass General. Go figure?
"That is all!" :thumbsup:
"Offshore" for me. My sister nearly died when she was born. She had a deformation called "Tricuspid Atresia." The American trained doctor, told us she had two years, max. The Indian (trained in India) trained doctor, on the other hand, told us not to listen to that. He tried a very difficult procedure...and gained by sister 27 years.
The truth is, America is "pretty good," at everything, but is not the best at anything. Electronics? Train in Japan or Korea. Engineering? Train in Germany. Medical training? Why, India. And of course, receiving theological training in the U.S. is like navigating a mine field.
It always amazes me, that Americans do not think adequate training can be done, unless it is on U.S. soil. Let me say; I for one have taken classes at unaccredited, foreign accredited, RA, and ATS schools. The foreign accredited classes were just as challenging, if not moreso, than the RA and ATS classes..
I don't understand this line of reasoning at all. I "get" what you are saying, but medical training is completely different from theological training.
It strikes me that you are implying that someone like me, or Havensdad for that matter, are less well equipped for ministry, or perhaps much worse. Are not the types of dialogue inherent to theological study much more conducive to various forms of distance or online learning? I didn't need to dissect a cadaver, something that cannot legally or ethically be done "on your own at home..."
I dissected text books, lectures, and discussions with other students, all of which can be done well online. I'll give you that the discussion boards online are not the same as discussion in person, on campus, friendships made in dorms, whatever, BUT I was ACTIVE in ministry while studying online and Pastor of a church from M.A. studies on through present D.Min. studies.
A surgeon's training holds almost nothing in common with that of a Pastor. Before you say that we need to be surgical with the Word ...
... that can be accomplished with training from a distance learning institution.This has a close relationship with the earlier discussion about experience and scholastic learning. A distance learning education buttressed with experience along the way equals a church-based mentoring program; isn't that a healthy model?
PP Response from Rhetorician
Greetings in the name of our Lord Christ,
I had typed out a point by point reply but nuked it. It was mean and vindictive and sarcastic. I repent!raying:
My bottom line: I want people to have the best education combined with experience to be the best for the Master's sake. And there are just too many who frequent these Educational threads of the BB who make me think they want credentials for ministry that are easy or cheap.
I am not slamming you or anyone else. If you infer that it was not meant directly or implied by me.
"That is all!"
I don't understand this line of reasoning at all. I "get" what you are saying, but medical training is completely different from theological training.
It strikes me that you are implying that someone like me, or Havensdad for that matter, are less well equipped for ministry, or perhaps much worse. Are not the types of dialogue inherent to theological study much more conducive to various forms of distance or online learning? I didn't need to dissect a cadaver, something that cannot legally or ethically be done "on your own at home..."
I dissected text books, lectures, and discussions with other students, all of which can be done well online. I'll give you that the discussion boards online are not the same as discussion in person, on campus, friendships made in dorms, whatever, BUT I was ACTIVE in ministry while studying online and Pastor of a church from M.A. studies on through present D.Min. studies.
A surgeon's training holds almost nothing in common with that of a Pastor. Before you say that we need to be surgical with the Word ...
This has a close relationship with the earlier discussion about experience and scholastic learning. A distance learning education buttressed with experience along the way equals a church-based mentoring program; isn't that a healthy model?
Greetings in the name of our Lord Christ,
I had typed out a point by point reply but nuked it. It was mean and vindictive and sarcastic. I repent!
raying:My bottom line: I want people to have the best education combined with experience to be the best for the Master's sake. And there are just too many who frequent these Educational threads of the BB who make me think they want credentials for ministry that are easy or cheap.
I am not slamming you or anyone else. If you infer that it was not meant directly or implied by me.
"That is all!"
Last edited by a moderator:
Greetings in the name of our Lord Christ,
I had typed out a point by point reply but nuked it. It was mean and vindictive and sarcastic. I repent!
My bottom line: I want people to have the best education combined with experience to be the best for the Master's sake. And there are just too many who frequent these Educational threads of the BB who make me think they want credentials for ministry that are easy or cheap.
I am not slamming you or anyone else. If you infer that it was not meant directly or implied by me.
"That is all!"
I'm not taking it personally at all. I understand your point and no need for repentance so far as I can see! My post had a more light tone (at least inside of me) than anything to warrant such a reply anyway.
I follow your thought and agree with the heart of it, but I do think that the comparison is a stretch between medical professionals and ministerial / theological training. I have a close friend who is a well respected surgeon whom I have had this conversation with, that is, about the differences between my 10 years of study and his... while we are swimming in his pool is beautiful house
... The training is so vastly different that the comparison between the one on campus and the other off campus is a real stretch I think. Again, I'm not being combative so please don't be offended at my statement brother.
I agree wholeheartedly that our primary motivation should be kingdom service preparedness and not "the easy way..." I get it. I just think we need to clarify what the easy way is.
...and this can be done via distance ed as well as a classroom setting.Rhetorician said:
This is one of the problems we have when we assume things. For instance, by your interaction on this particular board it could be "assumed" you only delve into educational discussions. If this is your preference, that is fine (others frequent this board purely for the political interaction). What would be wrong, though, is to assume your main purpose in life is higher education and not the great commission, and the same with those who only post politically.
The fact is not everyone can afford the best education and are not looking for the "cheap" way out.
Last edited by a moderator:
An observation from a friend of mine who has his DPhil from Oxford in chemistry really impacted me once. He noted that evangelicals (he isn't one) have this odd desire to gained credibility by having "Dr" attached to their names yet will sacrifice rigor and respectability in their quest to get that credibility.
As I've studied the fundamentalist phenomenon from the last century you see a lot of this. Many evangelical pastors get an honorary doctorate and expect to be called "Doctor" whenever they are addressed. Others will pursue flakey degrees from flakey institutions and become "experts" in their fields then go out and teach terrible things in churches and communities. When confronted by actual scholars in these respective fields they simply can't stand up to the requests and intellectual onslaught.
Now I know not everyone has a negative connotation about these things and many people seek out their academic journey for good reasons. Not everything has to be Ivy League to be credible. Yet I wonder, and always will, why some people want to take the shortcut to a certain "degreed" standing that isn't as useful as the rigorous road of competent academics.
Just my $.02...keep the change
As I've studied the fundamentalist phenomenon from the last century you see a lot of this. Many evangelical pastors get an honorary doctorate and expect to be called "Doctor" whenever they are addressed. Others will pursue flakey degrees from flakey institutions and become "experts" in their fields then go out and teach terrible things in churches and communities. When confronted by actual scholars in these respective fields they simply can't stand up to the requests and intellectual onslaught.
Now I know not everyone has a negative connotation about these things and many people seek out their academic journey for good reasons. Not everything has to be Ivy League to be credible. Yet I wonder, and always will, why some people want to take the shortcut to a certain "degreed" standing that isn't as useful as the rigorous road of competent academics.
Just my $.02...keep the change
An observation from a friend of mine who has his DPhil from Oxford in chemistry really impacted me once. He noted that evangelicals (he isn't one) have this odd desire to gained credibility by having "Dr" attached to their names yet will sacrifice rigor and respectability in their quest to get that credibility.
As I've studied the fundamentalist phenomenon from the last century you see a lot of this. Many evangelical pastors get an honorary doctorate and expect to be called "Doctor" whenever they are addressed. Others will pursue flakey degrees from flakey institutions and become "experts" in their fields then go out and teach terrible things in churches and communities. When confronted by actual scholars in these respective fields they simply can't stand up to the requests and intellectual onslaught.
Now I know not everyone has a negative connotation about these things and many people seek out their academic journey for good reasons. Not everything has to be Ivy League to be credible. Yet I wonder, and always will, why some people want to take the shortcut to a certain "degreed" standing that isn't as useful as the rigorous road of competent academics.
Just my $.02...keep the change
What do you consider Rigor? When a Speaker (Pastor, SS tecaher et. al) preapares a lesson and delves in several commentaries and may even listen to a CD or two from notable men, would that be Rigor?
So too those who have a syllabus with a textbook from a school of distance learning, who spend hours reading the textbook and answering the question in the syllabus working on a degree, would that too be Rigor?
How about those who spends hours listening to CD's from a school of distance learning and take notes along from the CD's along with several test for a Degree, is that Rigor?
Or do you consider that a short cut?
What do you consider Rigor in message preparation and how do you see that different from a dgree in Biblical studies or Theology?
Please define what you mena Rigor?
An observation from a friend of mine who has his DPhil from Oxford in chemistry really impacted me once. He noted that evangelicals (he isn't one) have this odd desire to gained credibility by having "Dr" attached to their names yet will sacrifice rigor and respectability in their quest to get that credibility.
As I've studied the fundamentalist phenomenon from the last century you see a lot of this. Many evangelical pastors get an honorary doctorate and expect to be called "Doctor" whenever they are addressed. Others will pursue flakey degrees from flakey institutions and become "experts" in their fields then go out and teach terrible things in churches and communities. When confronted by actual scholars in these respective fields they simply can't stand up to the requests and intellectual onslaught.
Now I know not everyone has a negative connotation about these things and many people seek out their academic journey for good reasons. Not everything has to be Ivy League to be credible. Yet I wonder, and always will, why some people want to take the shortcut to a certain "degreed" standing that isn't as useful as the rigorous road of competent academics.
Just my $.02...keep the change
I don't think anyone disagrees that there should be rigor. But residency and cost are completely separate issues from rigor. In fact, IF ANYTHING, distance ed. classes are more difficult. They almost always have more work than their B & M counterparts, which is probably why studies show that distance ed. students score better on tests, and retain more of the info.
Havensdad, you and I disagree here often. I can't help calling you out on it :type: It is equally fallacious to say that B&M classes are almost always harder, have more work, etc., than their DE counterparts. It's probably true for some, but cannot be universally stated for all. Your experience may be that DE is harder than RE. Mine is just the opposite. It proves nothing. It all depends on the institution and individual.
As for test scores, older students fare better than younger traditional college students. So if we apply your logic, should everyone wait until they're 40 to begin their Bachelors? Of course not.
DE is a valid option for some, just as UA is valid for some. But RE is quite valid and NA/RA is as well. Some will always prefer one or the other, by choice, necessity, or experience.
Tom,
I am not just basing this on my opinion. DE classes consistently add extra assignments, written DB posts, etc., in order to make up the supposed loss of classroom interaction.
As far as the rest, I am not saying anything, except that cost and residency have nothing to do with rigor. Rigor is a separate issue.
TV Response by Rhetorician
Hello Tom old friend!!
You responded to this quote:
"I am not just basing this on my opinion. DE classes consistently add extra assignments, written DB posts, etc., in order to make up the supposed loss of classroom interaction."
When I first saw this the other day I thought I could let it ride, but some things just cannot be let go!!
I did not go back and see who posted it, but I think I know who did? The statement is not only "fallacious" but it is just flat wrong. Note, I am responding against the statement NOT the one who spoke it.
For at least a decade I have taught World Religions on line. In fact I was the first at our little (RA) college to put a class on line with Blackboard.
SACS (Southern Association of Colleges and Schools) says that if a class uses the same course number then it must have exactly the same course content; i.e., assignments, readings, testings, etc. If the class is different than the "in seat" version it must have a different course number and the new course description must be spelled out in the bulletin.
SACS would be "all over" a school that did what was said above like "white on rice." The course would not long stand if it was done.
And a program that would do such I have a great many doubts about!! personally!! :laugh:
"That is all!"
Hello Tom old friend!!
You responded to this quote:
"I am not just basing this on my opinion. DE classes consistently add extra assignments, written DB posts, etc., in order to make up the supposed loss of classroom interaction."
When I first saw this the other day I thought I could let it ride, but some things just cannot be let go!!
I did not go back and see who posted it, but I think I know who did? The statement is not only "fallacious" but it is just flat wrong. Note, I am responding against the statement NOT the one who spoke it.
For at least a decade I have taught World Religions on line. In fact I was the first at our little (RA) college to put a class on line with Blackboard.
SACS (Southern Association of Colleges and Schools) says that if a class uses the same course number then it must have exactly the same course content; i.e., assignments, readings, testings, etc. If the class is different than the "in seat" version it must have a different course number and the new course description must be spelled out in the bulletin.
SACS would be "all over" a school that did what was said above like "white on rice." The course would not long stand if it was done.
And a program that would do such I have a great many doubts about!! personally!! :laugh:
"That is all!"
WB Response from Rhetorician
Web Dog dear brother:
Are you saying that:
1. "In seat" learning, especially on the seminary levels, can be as good as distance education?
2. "Higher education" and the "Great Commission" are to be separated? Or that one who works in higher education can not fulfill his "call" by doing so, even if it is not in the seminary training those who will go to the work?
Please clarify for me if you will?
"That is all!"
PS What I would like to see is everyone to get the "best" education possible for their own circumstance that they can, without compromise, short-cut, or laziness?
PPS And we have discussed at length on other threads the "I cannot afford to move my family across the country" arguments to death? Why can we not if that is what God has called us to do? Go figure?! :tonofbricks:
PPPS Finally, I would say if it does not cost much to get it by way of "time" or "effort" or "rigor" or "true accreditation" OR "take up thy cross and follow me," then it is probably worth what it costs!!
Web Dog dear brother:
Are you saying that:
1. "In seat" learning, especially on the seminary levels, can be as good as distance education?
2. "Higher education" and the "Great Commission" are to be separated? Or that one who works in higher education can not fulfill his "call" by doing so, even if it is not in the seminary training those who will go to the work?
Please clarify for me if you will?
"That is all!"
PS What I would like to see is everyone to get the "best" education possible for their own circumstance that they can, without compromise, short-cut, or laziness?
PPS And we have discussed at length on other threads the "I cannot afford to move my family across the country" arguments to death? Why can we not if that is what God has called us to do? Go figure?! :tonofbricks:
PPPS Finally, I would say if it does not cost much to get it by way of "time" or "effort" or "rigor" or "true accreditation" OR "take up thy cross and follow me," then it is probably worth what it costs!!
Last edited by a moderator:
General Rhetorician Response
To whom it may concern:
If I seem to be an "educational snob," it is only because I am. This is one area of pride where I am in constant repentance. The tone of these posts comes out of that. If offense occurs please forgive me ahead of time.
I have asked, it is up to you to respond. :godisgood:
"That is all!"
To whom it may concern:
If I seem to be an "educational snob," it is only because I am. This is one area of pride where I am in constant repentance. The tone of these posts comes out of that. If offense occurs please forgive me ahead of time.
I have asked, it is up to you to respond. :godisgood:
"That is all!"
This was addressed to WD, but I would like to answer...
I think distance ed. can be better than B & M. There are a lot of distractions for on campus students. Also, DE requires much more self discipline. These things build not only knowledge, but character and reliance upon God.
If God has placed a man in ministry somewhere, he does not have the right to up and quit, in order to go across country to seminary. Education (speaking in terms of formal education) should NEVER interfere with ones ministry. If it does, it is sin.
According to the studies done, then, you want them to get educated through Distance ed. No study shows deficiency for DE students, and many show that it is superior. So if you REALLY want the "best" education possible...let them take DE classes, instead of B & M.
Who are you to say that He is telling them to do that? Maybe He is telling them to stay where they are, and take DE classes...
Time, effort, and rigor, yes. But cost and residency have nothing to do with those.
I have asked on this thread I believe please define rigor?
If someone for instance spends 3 or 4 hours a night reading the text book, writing papers and answering questions in a syllabus for a week or two until they finish all assigned work is that rigor?
Where on campus they would spend two hours listening to lectures or doing class work and them possibly "HOME WORK" assignments, which has performed more rigor?
If somone spends two or three weeks for 3 to 4 hours a night listening to lectures on a CD taking notes and studying for test, then taking the test is that rigor?
Some distance learning schools use the first example others use the third and of course the second is on campus. So who has the most Rigor? Distance learning let's the student work at their pace and for many of us older folks we have spent many years in business and pastorates we know how to go to a task and get it done as quickly as possible and move to the next.
For my last 27 hours I followed the first example for my work, studying 3 to 4 hours a day at home at lunch and weekends to complete each course. I started in mid-October and had the courses complete by mid-January. Why because I wanted to finish as quickly as possible and assure I received my degree that graduating year.
- Status