evangelist-7
New Member
Of course, I have been born again.
Jesus is Lord!
Jesus Christ has come in the flesh!
But, you tell me what this last one means, okay? ... And then I'll ask you if you've been born again, okay?
Okay? Okay. Okee-dok.
.
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My testimony glorifies the Lord God Almighty!
- Thread starter evangelist-7
- Start date
Jesus is Lord!
Jesus Christ has come in the flesh!
But, you tell me what this last one means, okay? ... And then I'll ask you if you've been born again, okay?
Okay? Okay. Okee-dok.
.
evangelist-7
New Member
Moriah,
I you'd study my chart, you'd see that UPON is connected with the HS baptism, not salvation.
What chart? What verses? What me, study? Who? What? Where? When? It's all too confusing.
.
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evangelist-7
New Member
The Scripture PASSAGES below explain this baptism with the Holy Spirit.
And the important DETAILS in each passage are shown in the chart below.
Please notice how these details are so inter-connected (linked together) in the chart.
And realize that all the details of an event are seldom recorded every time the event occurs.
1 Luke 24:49 ------ 8 Acts 8:14-19
2 Acts 1:4-8 ------ 9 Acts 9:17-18
3 Acts 2:1-4 ----- 10 Romans 15:19
4 Acts 2:33-39 --- 11 Acts 10:44-48
5 Acts 4:8-16 ---- 12 Acts 11:15-17
6 Acts 4:31 ------ 13 Acts 14:3
7 Acts 5:12-16 ----14 Acts 19:5-6
------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
the Promise --------Y-Y---Y-------------------------
baptism with H.S. ----Y-------------Y--------Y-----Y
the gift -----------------Y---------------Y--Y------
upon ---------------Y Y Y---------Y-------Y--Y-----Y
laying on of hands ---------------Y-Y-----------Y--Y
filled with H.S. -------Y---Y-Y-----Y---------------
received H.S. --------------------Y-------Y---------
speaking tongues -------Y-----------------Y--------Y
power --------------Y-Y-----------Y----Y------------
boldness -------------------Y-Y-----------------Y---
miracles -------------------Y---Y---Y--Y--------Y---
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I do not want to study your chart.
No one needs to study your chart to know the truth.
When the Holy Spirit came UPON someone that is the same as being FILLED with the Holy Spirit. If you would like scripture showing you this, I would love to show it to you.
Your chart makes so many false assumptions it is hard to believe you cannot see them.
You really believe that all these characteristics you list are descriptives of the baptism in the Spirit???
Let me point out an obvious flaw in your assumptions. John the Baptist was "filled" with the Sprit from his mother's womb but the baptism in the Spirit was declared by John the Baptist as something yet future. Hence, the baptism in the Spirit cannot be equal to being "filled" with the Spirit.
Let me point out another obvious flaw in your assumptions. In the Old Testament the Spirit "came upon" God's people many times and so in Acts 8 the Holy Spirit failure to come "upon" them is no proof of the baptism in the Spirit. Secondly, what they received was through apostolic laying on of hands and was obvious as Simon wanted to purcahse that power and they did not deny they had that power but just denied he could purchase it.
This is only the beginning of errors in your chart.
I will ask you the same thing I have asked others.
1. Can you find anyone between Acts 2 and Acts 6 other than the Apostles performing miracles, signs and wonders?
2. Can you find anhone between Acts 6 and Acts 28 performing miracles signs and wonders other than those upon whom apostolic hands were laid?
3. How can miracles, signs and wonders be "THE SIGN" of the apostolic office if it is common among believers?
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Michael Wrenn
New Member
So, what are you -- United Pentecostal and trying to trick me?
evangelist-7
New Member
NO ... I am NOT UPC ... they don't believe in the Triune Godhead, etc., right?
YES ... I am trying to trick you ... just answer da qvestion, s'il vous plait, and good luck!
We'll see if you have any Holy Spirit revelation/wisdom, or not ... maybe you do.
But, no cheating ... researching it on the Internet, etc., okay?
.
You HAVE to realise that the Lord 'delayed' the Holy spirit coming upon any of them, in order to have the Apostles come to them and be a confirmation that God would save jews/gentiles/Samaritans by same messiah!
Acts is a transistion book, so not ALL of it was normitive for today...
Today, ALL receive theHS at moment of believe in Christ!
There sre still spiritualGifts, but NOT those 'gifted' to perform miracles/healings as Apostles did...
God still heals, but its Him based upon his sovereign Will, NOT faith healers
same with miracles!
ALl have same amount of the Holy Spirit today..
Question is how much of us does He have?
Acts is a transistion book, so not ALL of it was normitive for today...
Today, ALL receive theHS at moment of believe in Christ!
There sre still spiritualGifts, but NOT those 'gifted' to perform miracles/healings as Apostles did...
God still heals, but its Him based upon his sovereign Will, NOT faith healers
same with miracles!
ALl have same amount of the Holy Spirit today..
Question is how much of us does He have?
evangelist-7
New Member
For those who don't understand what the 14 verses reveal, let me clarify.
Connected with receiving the baptism with the Holy Spirit (not salvation):
-- the following always happens ... UPON, received, tongues, spiritual power and boldness attained
-- the following sometimes happens ... laying on of hands, miracles displayed
-- questionable ... filled
Connected with receiving salvation:
-- a different "received" happens ... the Holy Spirit is received INSIDE the person.
-- a different "filled" is questionable, and I just haven't researched it.
Note: What is confusing is sometimes the Lord gives the person both salvation and this baptism simultaneously.
The question still unresolved ...
What are you going to do with the many many millions around the world who swear by what I'm a-sayin'?
These poor folks are the ones getting other people saved around da world.
Are you going to tell all of these people that they've been deceived by Satan?
And just what purpose would Satan have for bothering ... especially in view of da blue.
P.S. I'm stubborn, ain't I, and deserve an A+ (and a Gold Star also) for extreme patience.
Hey, maybe I'll get to stand in one row closer to the Lord (like in Row #16,581).
.
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Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
The Bible speaks nothing about speaking according to charts.
In fact it says nothing about speaking according to one's experiences.
It condemns those that do not speak according to His Word.
What does it mean to be born again according to the Scriptures?
Have you been born again according to the Scriptures?
If so, how and when?
evangelist-7
New Member
You're correct, I don't understand your red.
Yes, the Day of Pentecost was unique ... with the tongues of fire, 120 tongues simultaneously.
Yes, everyone saved has received the Holy Spirit.
None of you has any of the 9 spiritual gifts in 1 Cor 12 ... guaranteed.
Yes, God still heals, with or without spiritually-gifted faith healers.
Yes, God still performs miracles, with or without spiritually-gifted miracle workers.
When Jesus said, "greater works shall you do", He was talking about quantity.
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evangelist-7
New Member
Another problem for you to explain and/or solve ...
Last week I discovered that I had:
7 INSIDE NT verses connected with born-again salvation
and
7 UPON NT verses ... connected with baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Now, since you believe that all 14 verses are connected ONLY with salvation,
art thou sayin' that the Holy Spirit has to come UPON before going INSIDE?
And that 7 verses ignore the UPON, and 7 verses ignore the INSIDE?
Enjoy, whilst you're havin' a good day!
Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
Even the angels in heaven would rather here a salvation testimony than the things that you have been posting on this board.
Again, can you find anyone between Acts 2- and Acts 6 that did miracles, signs and wonders apart from the apostles?
Again, can you find anyone between Acts 6 and Acts 28 that did miracles signs and wonders that first did not have apostolic hands laid upon them?
Again, how can signs, miracles and wonders be "The sign" of a true apostle if that was the norm for Christians in general - 2 Cor. 12:12?
Michael Wrenn
New Member
Since you seem to be more interested in playing games than in answering direct questions, I see no use in further communication with you.
And Satan does counterfeit tongues and other manifestations, so I'm careful who I deal with since my brush with Charismania.
The Word of God commands believers to "try the spirits" to see what kind of spirit is energising, leading, directing people (1 Jn 2:1) because false doctrines originate with spirits - demonic spirits (1 Tim. 4:1).
The Spirit of God is characterized as the Spirit "OF TRUTH" and the command to "try" the Spirits is a test of "truth" - 1 Jn. 4:6.
The Bible is the "word of truth" as Jesus asked the Father to sanctify his disciples by the truth and "thy word is truth."
Hence, the same test in the New Testament is the same in the Old Testament "if they speak not according this word it is because there is no light in them" - Isa. 8:20.
This is particularly true in regard to those whose perform authentic miracles and their prophesies do come to pass as miracles and fulfilled prophecy are not the final test of truth:
Deut. 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
When a person does miracles and wonders and predicts things that come to pass but their teaching does not harmonize with God's Word those miracles, signs and wonders are called "LYING" wonders because they do not confirm the truth of God's Word but confirm FALSE doctrines which originate from demonic spirits (1 Tim. 4:1).
The so-called Pentecostal/Charismatic movement teaches every false doctrine under the Sun and all claim the same experience - baptism in the Spirit and speaking in tongues. It is a demonic led movement and their doctrines prove it as well as the mass confusion among those claiming the same baptism and exercising the same kind of escatatic utterance they call "tongues."
Can true christians be involved in a demonic movement? Read Revelation 18:4
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evangelist-7
New Member
I prefer to let Scripture do my talking, and this is for "those who have ears to hear" ...
These 2 verses show “the promise” refers to the Holy Spirit baptism.
”Behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of
Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.” (Luke 24:49)
”… wait for the promise of the Father … you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
… you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;
and you shall be witnesses to Me … to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:4-8)
And these 2 verses show “the gift” also refers to the Holy Spirit baptism.
“… the Holy Spirit fell upon all those (Gentiles) who heard the word
… the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
For they (Peter and his companions) heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter asked, ‘Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be
baptized (in water) who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?’
And he commanded them to be (water) baptized in the name of the Lord.“ (Acts 10:44-48)
“… the Holy Spirit fell upon them (the Gentiles), as upon us (the Jews) at the beginning.
Then I remember the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water,
but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ … God gave them the same gift
as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 11:15-17)
Now, concerning the Day of Pentecost
Acts 2:
1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind,
and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
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16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; and they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above and signs in the earth beneath: blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
21 And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.’
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33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit,
He poured out this which you now see and hear.
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37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles,
“Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;
and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
Note:
Acts 2:17-18 … refers to pentecostals and charismatics in these last 100 years
Acts 2:21 … these powerful spiritual manifestations will result in many being saved
Acts 2:33 … “this” refers to what they all saw and heard on the Day of Pentecost
Acts 2:37 … the Jews asked what they should do to receive the same pentecostal experience
Acts 2:38-39 … this Holy Spirit baptism was for them then, and for whomever the Lord chose later
Evidently, in those days, salvation and the Holy Spirit baptism were given somewhat differently than today,
i.e. it appears that Peter expected believers to receive both simultaneously!
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As I pointed out in a previous post, the baptism in the Spirit was divine accreditation of the new house of God. Its authority, its mission and in particular the miraculous "power" behind the apostolic office to bear "witness" of Jesus Christ and his resurrection. Every text quoted above in its context has the apostles and the apostolic office in view. Miracles, signs and wonders were "the sign" of the apostolic office according to Paul in 2 Cor. 12;12. The only "POWER" in the sense of miracles signs and wonders being manifested in Acts 2 through Acts 6 comes ONLY through the apostles.
In particular this "power" to bear "witness" to Jesus Christ was espeically manifested in the apostolic production of the New Testament scriptures and it is this very "power" that provides the "foundation" upon which the new house of God is built and by which the gospel bears witness until Jesus comes again.
You are simply not paying attention to the basics of Biblical hermeneutics (1) who is being addressed - the apostles; (2) who are the ones manifesting this "power" from Acts 2 through Acts 6 - ONLY the Apostles.
If your position were true then all 120 plus the 3000 saved on Pentecost and then the later 5000 would all be manifesting this "power" BUT THEY ARE NOT!
Again, you are not paying attention to the wording of the scriptures you are quoting. The nearest reference point that Peter could point to that was similar to what happened at the house of Corneilus was "AT the beginning" or on Pentecost. If you position were true he should have said "SINCE the beginning" as your position demands it is an individual experience and yet NONE of the 8000 plus multiplied more are ever mentioned even ONCE between Acts 2 and Acts 6 of manifesting such power and NONE but those upon whom the apostles laid their hands are mentioned between Acts 6 and Acts 10.
Second, You are confusing "the gift" of tongues that ACCOMPANIED the baptism in the Spirit but which is NOT the baptism in the Spirit just as being "filled" accompanied the baptism in the Spirit but it was not the baptism in the Spirit.
Again, the nearest reference point that Peter could point to for what happened in the house of Corneilius was Pentecost as NOTHING between Pentecost and the house of Corneilus could compare. That is the death nell of Pentecostalism.
Furthermore, look at what happened above. The subjects of the baptism in the Spirit were baptized believing church members. There was a complete immersion in the Spirit because the room was filled wherein they were sitting. There were tongues of fire sitting upon the heads of each. This shows the parallelism with previous baptisms in the Spirit with each former new house of God - immersion and fire from heaven that lit the altar.
This visible phenomena does not occcur between Acts 2 and Acts 10 according to Peter's testimony in Acts 11:15-16. Furthermore it is NEVER occurred since Acts 11;15-16 and still does not occur to ANY of those claiming to be baptized in the Spirit today.
What is happening today is FAKE an FRAUDULANT counterfit power of demons because it is NOT SIMILAR to either Acts 2 or Acts 10.