Baptism in the Spirit

[The Biblicist]

There are basically three views of the Baptism in the Spirit.

1. Protestant view - Placement by the Holy Spirit at regeneration into the mystical universal body of Christ.


2. Pentecostal view - Subsequent second work of grace after regeneration manifested by speaking in tongues.

3. Historical Baptist View - Well documented Old Testament public accreditation of a new house of God that occurred once at the beginning just after the house of God had been finished.


Just properly looking at the promise and its language sufficiently repudiates the first two theories:


Mt. 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost"


A. The Administrator is not the Spirit of God but Christ. - "he shall"

B. The Element is not the body of Christ but the Spirit "with (Gr. en) the Holy Ghost"

C. The Candidate is not the individual believer but plural water baptized beleivers. "baptize you with water....you" (Plural, and it is those baptized believers)

D. The Mode - "baptize" - immersion

E. The Time - All scriptures prior to Acts 2 point forward with Acts 1:5 specifying it "not many days hence" while all references after Acts 2 point backwards (Acts 11:15- "at the beginning) proving that the Acts 10 occurrence was clearly an exception to the rule. Take note that the NEAREST reference point Peter could refer to when such a thing had previously occurred was "AT the beginning." If as Pentecostals and Protestants say this as a continuing individualized experience then Peter should have said "SINCE the beginning" but He did not say that, proving it was EXCEPTIONAL rather than the rule.

F. The Manifestations - Shikinah glory and fire. In Acts 2-6 no one but the apostles spoke in tongues or exercised spiritual gifts and miracles. In Acts 6-28 no one spoke in tongues and exercised spiritual gifts and miracles but those whom the Apostles laid their hands upon. Tongues, miracles, signs and wonders are the "sign" of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12) and are imparted only to others through the laying on of apostolic hands (Rom. 1:11; Acts 6:5; 8:16-17; 19:6; etc.)

Conclusion: Both the Protestant and Pentecost call it a baptism by the Spirit when it is a baptism by Christ. The Protestant theory is that it is the Spirit baptizing the beleiver into Christ when it is Christ baptizing water baptized believers into the Spirit. Both of these theories fail because they demand it is an ongoing individualized experience when in fact it is treated in scripture as fulfilled on Pentecost once and for all and that the case at the house of Corneilius is treated as the only exception to that rule - "AT the beginning."

 

[Michael Wrenn]

There are basically three views of the Baptism in the Spirit.

1. Protestant view - Placement by the Holy Spirit at regeneration into the mystical universal body of Christ.


2. Pentecostal view - Subsequent second work of grace after regeneration manifested by speaking in tongues.

3. Historical Baptist View - Well documented Old Testament public accreditation of a new house of God that occurred once at the beginning just after the house of God had been finished.


Just properly looking at the promise and its language sufficiently repudiates the first two theories:


Mt. 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost"


A. The Administrator is not the Spirit of God but Christ. - "he shall"

B. The Element is not the body of Christ but the Spirit "with (Gr. en) the Holy Ghost"

C. The Candidate is not the individual believer but plural water baptized beleivers. "baptize you with water....you" (Plural, and it is those baptized believers)

D. The Mode - "baptize" - immersion

E. The Time - All scriptures prior to Acts 2 point forward with Acts 1:5 specifying it "not many days hence" while all references after Acts 2 point backwards (Acts 11:15- "at the beginning) proving that the Acts 10 occurrence was clearly an exception to the rule. Take note that the NEAREST reference point Peter could refer to when such a thing had previously occurred was "AT the beginning." If as Pentecostals and Protestants say this as a continuing individualized experience then Peter should have said "SINCE the beginning" but He did not say that, proving it was EXCEPTIONAL rather than the rule.

F. The Manifestations - Shikinah glory and fire. In Acts 2-6 no one but the apostles spoke in tongues or exercised spiritual gifts and miracles. In Acts 6-28 no one spoke in tongues and exercised spiritual gifts and miracles but those whom the Apostles laid their hands upon. Tongues, miracles, signs and wonders are the "sign" of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12) and are imparted only to others through the laying on of apostolic hands (Rom. 1:11; Acts 6:5; 8:16-17; 19:6; etc.)

Conclusion: Both the Protestant and Pentecost call it a baptism by the Spirit when it is a baptism by Christ. The Protestant theory is that it is the Spirit baptizing the beleiver into Christ when it is Christ baptizing water baptized believers into the Spirit. Both of these theories fail because they demand it is an ongoing individualized experience when in fact it is treated in scripture as fulfilled on Pentecost once and for all and that the case at the house of Corneilius is treated as the only exception to that rule - "AT the beginning."

I hold to the Protestant view, as you have defined it. But Quakers and Anabaptists also believe this.

 

[Moriah]

There are basically three views of the Baptism in the Spirit.

1. Protestant view - Placement by the Holy Spirit at regeneration into the mystical universal body of Christ.


2. Pentecostal view - Subsequent second work of grace after regeneration manifested by speaking in tongues.

3. Historical Baptist View - Well documented Old Testament public accreditation of a new house of God that occurred once at the beginning just after the house of God had been finished.


Just properly looking at the promise and its language sufficiently repudiates the first two theories:


Mt. 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost"


A. The Administrator is not the Spirit of God but Christ. - "he shall"

B. The Element is not the body of Christ but the Spirit "with (Gr. en) the Holy Ghost"

C. The Candidate is not the individual believer but plural water baptized beleivers. "baptize you with water....you" (Plural, and it is those baptized believers)

D. The Mode - "baptize" - immersion

E. The Time - All scriptures prior to Acts 2 point forward with Acts 1:5 specifying it "not many days hence" while all references after Acts 2 point backwards (Acts 11:15- "at the beginning) proving that the Acts 10 occurrence was clearly an exception to the rule. Take note that the NEAREST reference point Peter could refer to when such a thing had previously occurred was "AT the beginning." If as Pentecostals and Protestants say this as a continuing individualized experience then Peter should have said "SINCE the beginning" but He did not say that, proving it was EXCEPTIONAL rather than the rule.

F. The Manifestations - Shikinah glory and fire. In Acts 2-6 no one but the apostles spoke in tongues or exercised spiritual gifts and miracles. In Acts 6-28 no one spoke in tongues and exercised spiritual gifts and miracles but those whom the Apostles laid their hands upon. Tongues, miracles, signs and wonders are the "sign" of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12) and are imparted only to others through the laying on of apostolic hands (Rom. 1:11; Acts 6:5; 8:16-17; 19:6; etc.)

Conclusion: Both the Protestant and Pentecost call it a baptism by the Spirit when it is a baptism by Christ. The Protestant theory is that it is the Spirit baptizing the beleiver into Christ when it is Christ baptizing water baptized believers into the Spirit. Both of these theories fail because they demand it is an ongoing individualized experience when in fact it is treated in scripture as fulfilled on Pentecost once and for all and that the case at the house of Corneilius is treated as the only exception to that rule - "AT the beginning."

What are you talking about, are you saying Jesus baptizing us with the Holy Spirit is not an individual occurrence?
It sounds like you are saying that. I want to discuss this topic more with you but could you kindly clarify before I go on?

 

[The Biblicist]

I hold to the Protestant view, as you have defined it. But Quakers and Anabaptists also believe this.

If you are speaking of certain groups of Anabaptists ok. However, you cannot demonstrate the historical anabaptist movement believed this.

 

[The Biblicist]

What are you talking about, are you saying Jesus baptizing us with the Holy Spirit is not an individual occurrence?
It sounds like you are saying that. I want to discuss this topic more with you but could you kindly clarify before I go on?

Just carefully read what I have stated. Can't get it much more clearer than what I have said. Nobody else is having problems understanding what I said.

 

[Moriah]

Just carefully read what I have stated. Can't get it much more clearer than what I have said. Nobody else is having problems understanding what I said.

Are you trying to act like evangelist7 now? lol

Being baptized with the Holy Spirit is something that happens individually.

 

[The Biblicist]

Are you trying to act like evangelist7 now? lol

Being baptized with the Holy Spirit is something that happens individually.

Deal with the evidence I placed before you! You are simply doing the RJP cultic routine again. No dice this time. Stick with the OP or go elsewhere!

 

[The Biblicist]

There are basically three views of the Baptism in the Spirit.

1. Protestant view - Placement by the Holy Spirit at regeneration into the mystical universal body of Christ.


2. Pentecostal view - Subsequent second work of grace after regeneration manifested by speaking in tongues.

3. Historical Baptist View - Well documented Old Testament public accreditation of a new house of God that occurred once at the beginning just after the house of God had been finished.


Just properly looking at the promise and its language sufficiently repudiates the first two theories:


Mt. 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost"


A. The Administrator is not the Spirit of God but Christ. - "he shall"

B. The Element is not the body of Christ but the Spirit "with (Gr. en) the Holy Ghost"

C. The Candidate is not the individual believer but plural water baptized beleivers. "baptize you with water....you" (Plural, and it is those baptized believers)

D. The Mode - "baptize" - immersion

E. The Time - All scriptures prior to Acts 2 point forward with Acts 1:5 specifying it "not many days hence" while all references after Acts 2 point backwards (Acts 11:15- "at the beginning) proving that the Acts 10 occurrence was clearly an exception to the rule. Take note that the NEAREST reference point Peter could refer to when such a thing had previously occurred was "AT the beginning." If as Pentecostals and Protestants say this as a continuing individualized experience then Peter should have said "SINCE the beginning" but He did not say that, proving it was EXCEPTIONAL rather than the rule.

F. The Manifestations - Shikinah glory and fire. In Acts 2-6 no one but the apostles spoke in tongues or exercised spiritual gifts and miracles. In Acts 6-28 no one spoke in tongues and exercised spiritual gifts and miracles but those whom the Apostles laid their hands upon. Tongues, miracles, signs and wonders are the "sign" of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12) and are imparted only to others through the laying on of apostolic hands (Rom. 1:11; Acts 6:5; 8:16-17; 19:6; etc.)

Conclusion: Both the Protestant and Pentecost call it a baptism by the Spirit when it is a baptism by Christ. The Protestant theory is that it is the Spirit baptizing the beleiver into Christ when it is Christ baptizing water baptized believers into the Spirit. Both of these theories fail because they demand it is an ongoing individualized experience when in fact it is treated in scripture as fulfilled on Pentecost once and for all and that the case at the house of Corneilius is treated as the only exception to that rule - "AT the beginning."

Here are the Biblical facts again! If I am wrong then point out where I am wrong in the evidence I have provided above.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

If you are speaking of certain groups of Anabaptists ok. However, you cannot demonstrate the historical anabaptist movement believed this.

It is not possible to say all Anabaptists believed such and such; they were very diverse.

 

[Moriah]

Here are the Biblical facts again! If I am wrong then point out where I am wrong in the evidence I have provided above.

I tried to have a deep discussion about this with you, but you decided to act like evangelist7.

Are you, or are you not, saying a person cannot be baptized individually with the Holy Spirit by Jesus?

 

[The Biblicist]

I tried to have a deep discussion about this with you, but you decided to act like evangelist7.

Are you, or are you not, saying a person cannot be baptized individually with the Holy Spirit by Jesus?

If you cannot read the OP I cannot help you! You are simply trying to get away from the evidence spelled out in the OP. I spell out all three positions including your position and point out the evidence against it. Deal with it!

 

[The Biblicist]

There are basically three views of the Baptism in the Spirit.

1. Protestant view - Placement by the Holy Spirit at regeneration into the mystical universal body of Christ.


2. Pentecostal view - Subsequent second work of grace after regeneration manifested by speaking in tongues.

3. Historical Baptist View - Well documented Old Testament public accreditation of a new house of God that occurred once at the beginning just after the house of God had been finished.


Just properly looking at the promise and its language sufficiently repudiates the first two theories:


Mt. 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost"


A. The Administrator is not the Spirit of God but Christ. - "he shall"

B. The Element is not the body of Christ but the Spirit "with (Gr. en) the Holy Ghost"

C. The Candidate is not the individual believer but plural water baptized beleivers. "baptize you with water....you" (Plural, and it is those baptized believers)

D. The Mode - "baptize" - immersion

E. The Time - All scriptures prior to Acts 2 point forward with Acts 1:5 specifying it "not many days hence" while all references after Acts 2 point backwards (Acts 11:15- "at the beginning) proving that the Acts 10 occurrence was clearly an exception to the rule. Take note that the NEAREST reference point Peter could refer to when such a thing had previously occurred was "AT the beginning." If as Pentecostals and Protestants say this as a continuing individualized experience then Peter should have said "SINCE the beginning" but He did not say that, proving it was EXCEPTIONAL rather than the rule.

F. The Manifestations - Shikinah glory and fire. In Acts 2-6 no one but the apostles spoke in tongues or exercised spiritual gifts and miracles. In Acts 6-28 no one spoke in tongues and exercised spiritual gifts and miracles but those whom the Apostles laid their hands upon. Tongues, miracles, signs and wonders are the "sign" of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12) and are imparted only to others through the laying on of apostolic hands (Rom. 1:11; Acts 6:5; 8:16-17; 19:6; etc.)

Conclusion: Both the Protestant and Pentecost call it a baptism by the Spirit when it is a baptism by Christ. The Protestant theory is that it is the Spirit baptizing the beleiver into Christ when it is Christ baptizing water baptized believers into the Spirit. Both of these theories fail because they demand it is an ongoing individualized experience when in fact it is treated in scripture as fulfilled on Pentecost once and for all and that the case at the house of Corneilius is treated as the only exception to that rule - "AT the beginning."

The Baptism in the Spirit cannot be one with regeneration because regeneration was a Pre-Pentecost reality as John 3:3-10 clearly and explicitly teaches.

The Baptism in the Spirit cannot be putting saints into the body of Christ because the Holy Spirit not Christ is the element while Christ not the Holy Spirit is the administrator.

The Baptism in the Spirit cannot be one and the same as spiritual union with God through Christ because where there is no spiritual union with God there is spiritual death and that would condemn all Pre-Pentecost saints listed in Hebrews 11 to spiritual death.

The Baptism in the Spirit cannot be one and the same as spiritual union or salvation because the promise is given to WATER BAPTIZED believers only, as Matthew 3:11a clearly proves, as it is the "you" that John baptized in water is the "you" he says will be baptized in the Spirit and every single one gathered in the upper room in Acts 2 were baptized believers and that gift was promised the new believers upon repentance and baptism in water (Acts 2:38-39).

 

[Moriah]

Please try to be patient and kind.

The Baptism in the Spirit cannot be one with regeneration because regeneration was a Pre-Pentecost reality as John 3:3-10 clearly and explicitly teaches.

I think I understand what you are explaining. However, you have not shown why the baptism of the Spirit cannot be one with regeneration.
When Jesus saved me, at that same time I received the Holy Spirit and was born again.

The Baptism in the Spirit cannot be putting saints into the body of Christ because the Holy Spirit not Christ is the element while Christ not the Holy Spirit is the administrator.

Can you explain what difference it makes?

The Baptism in the Spirit cannot be one and the same as spiritual union with God through Christ because where there is no spiritual union with God there is spiritual death and that would condemn all Pre-Pentecost saints listed in Hebrews 11 to spiritual death.

The baptism in the Spirit is being in spiritual union with God.
God was Spiritually with Israel. Now we have the Holy Spirit living inside us.

The Baptism in the Spirit cannot be one and the same as spiritual union or salvation because the promise is given to WATER BAPTIZED believers only, as Matthew 3:11a clearly proves, as it is the "you" that John baptized in water is the "you" he says will be baptized in the Spirit and every single one gathered in the upper room in Acts 2 were baptized believers and that gift was promised the new believers upon repentance and baptism in water (Acts 2:38-39).

I was baptized once at two months of age in the Catholic Church, and then I was baptized in another false religion as an adult. When Jesus gave me his Holy Spirit, are you saying it was only because I had first been baptized in one of these false religions?

 

[The Biblicist]

I think I understand what you are explaining. However, you have not shown why the baptism of the Spirit cannot be one with regeneration.

It cannot be one with regeneration because regeneration preceded the day of Pentecost (Jn. 3:3-10) but the baptism in the Spirit predicted by John did not precede the day of Pentecost.

Jesus rebuked Nicodemus as a Bible teacher for being ignorant of the new birth/regeneration. Jesus could not have rightly rebuked Nicodemus for being ignorant of regeneration/new birth IF as you claim it did not exist until the day of Pentecost. Look at the rebuke of Christ and it came WAY BEFORE Pentecost:

Jn. 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

The new birth/regeneration is called circumcision of the heart in the Old Testament and I have already documented that and given those scriptures to you.

Jesus did not tell Nicodemus "Except A POST-PENTECOSTAL believer be born again"! He said, except a "MAN" be born again he cannot enter or see the kingdom of God. Do you believe Abel and all those listed in Hebrews 11 will enter and see the Kingdom of God???????

For you to respond that Israel alone were the 'people of God" prior to Pentecost is simply a lie and you know it. You know that every single person listed in Hebrews 11 were God's people and every single one had to be born again/regenerated or not a signle one would have any future hope to enter or see the kingdom of God. It is just that simple and that patently clear!

Can you explain what difference it makes?

It is a LIE and a PERVERSION of Scripture to say that the Holy Spirit is the administrator of this baptism when not one single solitary prediction by John or Jesus says that.

It is a LIE and a PERVERSION of Scripture to say that Christ is the element into which someone is immersed when not one single solitary precition by John or Jesus says that.

The only way the Holy Spirit baptizes believers into Christ is the way it is explained in 1 Corithians 3 where it is speaking about WATER baptism in relationship to the metaphorical "house" and "temple" at Corinth. There the human administrators of baptism operate in unity with each other working TOGETHER AS ONE with The Holy Spirit in adding members to the congregational body of Christ at Corinth.

1 Cor. 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.

The baptism in the Spirit is being in spiritual union with God.

Any human that is not in "spiritual union" with God is lost, an enemy of God, condemned to hell and is in spiritual death. The baptism in the Spirit as predicted by John and Jesus did not occur to Pentecost. Hence, your definition damns every man named in Hebrews 11 beginning with ABEL who as not a Jew, NOT OF ISRAEL to spiritually dead people in hell.

You cannot have it both ways! If baptism in the Spirit = spiritual union/spiritual life and it did not occur until Pentecost then no human being had spiritual union/spiritual life previous to Pentecost. The Baptism in the Spirit has NOTHING to do with INDIVIDUAL salvation/regeneration or sanctification.

God was Spiritually with Israel. Now we have the Holy Spirit living inside us.

That is simply not true. I already quoted numerous passages from Jeremiah and other prophets where God DENIED that Israel was circumcised in heart! Being "born of blood" even Jewish blood, never obtained SPIRITUAL UNION with God for any Jew at any time either before or after Pentecost. There was NEVER any SPIRITUAL UNION between God and every individual Jew nor with the NATION of Israel - Never!

Deut. 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.


It will not matter how much evidence I place before you. It will not matter how irrational your arguments are shown to be.

 

[Moriah]

It cannot be one with regeneration because regeneration preceded the day of Pentecost (Jn. 3:3-10) but the baptism in the Spirit predicted by John did not precede the day of Pentecost.

It does not matter if regeneration came before or not, for after Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to individuals to live inside them, there is no reason to believe regeneration does not happen at the same time.

Jesus rebuked Nicodemus as a Bible teacher for being ignorant of the new birth/regeneration. Jesus could not have rightly rebuked Nicodemus for being ignorant of regeneration/new birth IF as you claim it did not exist until the day of Pentecost. Look at the rebuke of Christ and it came WAY BEFORE Pentecost:

So far I have NOT claimed that regeneration did not exist until the day of Pentecost.

The new birth/regeneration is called circumcision of the heart in the Old Testament and I have already documented that and given those scriptures to you.
Jesus did not tell Nicodemus "Except A POST-PENTECOSTAL believer be born again"! He said, except a "MAN" be born again he cannot enter or see the kingdom of God. Do you believe Abel and all those listed in Hebrews 11 will enter and see the Kingdom of God???????

Do you see what happens when you presume I said something that I did not? Do you see now why you should not get so upset with me when I ask you more questions to make sure I understand what you say? You should be more careful in what you think I have said. Again, so far I have NOT said there was no regeneration before Pentecost.

I have said that even if there was regeneration before Pentecost, that does not mean regeneration could not happen at the same time a person is given the Holy Spirit.

For you to respond that Israel alone were the 'people of God" prior to Pentecost is simply a lie and you know it.

I want that ugly and hateful debate tactic of yours to stop. Do not say I am lying about something. Stop it now the way you speak to me, even though DHK lets you get away with it.

The Bible says Gentiles separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world, see Ephesians 2:12.

The Gentiles were the uncircumcised.

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ, Ephesians 2:13

The blood of Christ brought the Gentiles near! When did Jesus shed his blood, it was not in the Old Testament.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, Ephesians 2:14

by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:15

Tell me, did Jesus make the two one with his flesh when he was crucified, or was the two one the whole time? You have been demanding that the Jews and Gentiles were one in Jesus since the beginning of time. You are speaking something opposite from the Word.

and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility, Ephesians 2:16.

Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Tell me; was it through the gospel that the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, OR NOT? You say they were always heirs from the beginning, BUT THE WORD OF GOD SAYS THROUGH THE GOSPEL THEY BECAME HEIRS.

Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near, Ephesians 2:17.

For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit, Ephesians 2:18.

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, Ephesians 2:19.

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Tell me, if Gentiles were always ‘in’ as you say, then why did Israel have to experience a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in?

You know that every single person listed in Hebrews 11 were God's people and every single one had to be born again/regenerated or not a signle one would have any future hope to enter or see the kingdom of God. It is just that simple and that patently clear!

Were any of them Gentiles? Were they not all related to each other?

It is a LIE and a PERVERSION of Scripture to say that the Holy Spirit is the administrator of this baptism when not one single solitary prediction by John or Jesus says that.
It is a LIE and a PERVERSION of Scripture to say that Christ is the element into which someone is immersed when not one single solitary precition by John or Jesus says that.

Again, stop talking to me like that. Stop calling me a liar and perverted. What kind of spirit do you have that causes you to talk to me that way?

The Father God, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit is One.

The Bible says the Lord is the Spirit, see 2 Corinthians 3:17.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

The Bible says the Lord is the Spirit again in 2 Corinthians 3:18.

2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

The Bible also says to ask anything in Jesus’ name he will do it, see John 16:14.

We are also told to ask the Father in Jesus’ name, he will give it to you, see John 16:23.

Jesus sends the Holy Spirit, see John 16:17, and Luke 24:49.

The Father sends the Holy Spirit, see John 14:26, and Acts 2:33.

The Father draws, see John 6:44.

Jesus does the drawing, see John 12:32.

Jesus raises us up, John 6:40.

God raises up the dead, Romans 4:17.

Jesus says the Father and I are one, John 10:30.

The only way the Holy Spirit baptizes believers into Christ is the way it is explained in 1 Corithians 3 where it is speaking about WATER baptism in relationship to the metaphorical "house" and "temple" at Corinth. There the human administrators of baptism operate in unity with each other working TOGETHER AS ONE with The Holy Spirit in adding members to the congregational body of Christ at Corinth.

Not everyone who goes to church is for sure a part of the body of Christ.

Why would Paul speak that way about all the members of the church, when he also says to “Expel the wicked man from among you."

The baptism in the Spirit as predicted by John and Jesus did not occur to Pentecost. Hence, your definition damns every man named in Hebrews 11 beginning with ABEL who as not a Jew, NOT OF ISRAEL to spiritually dead people in hell.

You make no sense. Those in Hebrews 11 are God’s people. Pay better attention to what I say. Stop making up arguments.

 

[The Biblicist]

It does not matter if regeneration came before or not, for after Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to individuals to live inside them, there is no reason to believe regeneration does not happen at the same time.

Regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit within HIS PEOPLE. Regneration is SPIRITUAL UNION because it is the imparation of SPIRITUAL LIFE. Spiritual death is SPIRITUAL SEPARATION.

Hence, if you say that the baptism IS spiritual life then it is spiritual union which is regeneration.

SPRITIUAL UNION or REGENERATION did not begin at Pentecost but with the very first person that God saved from SPIRITUAL DEATH.

Jesus demands that the internal work of the Holy Spirit inregeneration/spiritual life preceded Pentecost and that it is essential for any man at any time anywhere to be able to enter or see the kingdom of God. (Jn. 3:3) Jesus demand there are only two classes of human beings on earth (1) those born "of the flesh" and those "born of the Spirit" just as Paul demands there are only two classes of humans on earth (1) "in the flesh" and those (2) "in the Spirit" (Rom. 8:8-9).

In other words from Adam to the last man born, they are all naturally born SPIRITUALLY DEAD (separated spritually from God) or supernaturally born SPIRITUALLY ALIVE (regenerated/Spiritually united). There are no third class of humans anywhere at anytime in history.

The Bible says Gentiles separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world, see Ephesians 2:12.

You are wrong here but how to show that to you where you can see it clearly is something only God can show you. Read all that I have to say before making any comments.

1. All the elect in all ages were chosen "IN" Christ before the world began "to salvation" (Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13) both Jews and GENTILES.

2. All the elect previous to the cross looked forward to the cross by faith (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2; 11) and were made ONE in Christ by regeneration (Jn. 3) and justification (Rom. 4 - Abraham) by faith just as gentiles now look back to the cross and are made one with Christ by regeneration and justification by faith.

3. Gentiles as NATIONS were not the objects of God PRIMARY redemptive work before Pentecost (Eph. 2:12-18) but Gentiles as INDIVIDUALS were saved by God before Pentecost on many occassions (Abel, Seth, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Ninevites, Rahab, etc.) just as Jews as a NATION are not the primary objects of redemption by God now but INDIVIDUAL Jews are still be saved.

4. Abel, Seth, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Rahab, Ninevites were no more related to the Jews then YOU are today. The Jews or Israel come from the seed of Jacob and before Jacob there were no such thing as Jews or Israel.

5. Apart from the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit there can be no SPIRITUAL LIFE and there can be no progressive sanctification. Without the Holy Spirit there is only SPIRITUAL SEPARATION which is SPIRITUAL DEATH.


6. Old Testament saints were cleansed by the blood of Christ by faith looking forward to the cross (Acts 10:43 "for remission of sins") as we look back to the cross by faith.

7. Old Testament saints were regenerated - brought into SPIRITUAL UNION = SPIRITUAL LIFE as we are (Jn. 3:3-10; Rom. 8:8-9) just as we are.

8. The Baptism in the Spirit has NOTHING to do with INDIVIDUAL salvation but with PLURAL water baptized people who are already SPIRITUALLY ALIVE/SPIRITUAL UNION with God as the new "house of God" - 1 Tim. 3:15; Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:5; 2:1 - Those saved on Pentecosts were "ADDED" to the "church" that had been meeting since Jesus gathered baptized believers around him and continually assembled with them from the time of the baptism of John (Acts 1:21-22).

 

[The Biblicist]

There are basically three views of the Baptism in the Spirit.

1. Protestant view - Placement by the Holy Spirit at regeneration into the mystical universal body of Christ.


2. Pentecostal view - Subsequent second work of grace after regeneration manifested by speaking in tongues.

3. Historical Baptist View - Well documented Old Testament public accreditation of a new house of God that occurred once at the beginning just after the house of God had been finished.


Just properly looking at the promise and its language sufficiently repudiates the first two theories:


Mt. 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost"


A. The Administrator is not the Spirit of God but Christ. - "he shall"

B. The Element is not the body of Christ but the Spirit "with (Gr. en) the Holy Ghost"

C. The Candidate is not the individual believer but plural water baptized beleivers. "baptize you with water....you" (Plural, and it is those baptized believers)

D. The Mode - "baptize" - immersion

E. The Time - All scriptures prior to Acts 2 point forward with Acts 1:5 specifying it "not many days hence" while all references after Acts 2 point backwards (Acts 11:15- "at the beginning) proving that the Acts 10 occurrence was clearly an exception to the rule. Take note that the NEAREST reference point Peter could refer to when such a thing had previously occurred was "AT the beginning." If as Pentecostals and Protestants say this as a continuing individualized experience then Peter should have said "SINCE the beginning" but He did not say that, proving it was EXCEPTIONAL rather than the rule.

F. The Manifestations - Shikinah glory and fire. In Acts 2-6 no one but the apostles spoke in tongues or exercised spiritual gifts and miracles. In Acts 6-28 no one spoke in tongues and exercised spiritual gifts and miracles but those whom the Apostles laid their hands upon. Tongues, miracles, signs and wonders are the "sign" of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12) and are imparted only to others through the laying on of apostolic hands (Rom. 1:11; Acts 6:5; 8:16-17; 19:6; etc.)

Conclusion: Both the Protestant and Pentecost call it a baptism by the Spirit when it is a baptism by Christ. The Protestant theory is that it is the Spirit baptizing the beleiver into Christ when it is Christ baptizing water baptized believers into the Spirit. Both of these theories fail because they demand it is an ongoing individualized experience when in fact it is treated in scripture as fulfilled on Pentecost once and for all and that the case at the house of Corneilius is treated as the only exception to that rule - "AT the beginning."

The Baptism in the Spirt was a common Old Testament act of God that NEVER had to do with INDVIDUAL salvation of any kind. It was the public acceditation by God of His House that occurred ONCE during what the Jews called the "dedication of the house of God" after it was finished.

It was God's way of openly approving the new PUBLIC house for worship within the kingdom of God on earth. At this immersion the fire of God would come down and light the altar once and then the ordained ministry were required to perpetuate that fire keeping it burning and using it only to light the candlesticks and altar of incense in the holy place. Fire originating from any other source was "strange fire." Hence, this baptism in the Spirit was accompanied by fire and filling as manifestations of God's approval for a PUBLIC house of worship within the professing kingdom of God. This was done once at the beginning as that permenantly accredited it as the "pillar and ground of the truth" until God replaced it with another house of God.

This occurred three times in the Old Testament, first to the tabernacle, then to Solomon's Temple and to the Post Babylonian Temple of Zerubbabel.

1. The Tabernacle - Exodus 40:

Ex. 40:34 ¶ Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, .

2. Solomon's Temple - 2 Chron. 7:3

1 ¶ Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.
2 And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD’S house.
3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

3. Zerubbabel's Temple

Hag. 6:15 And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.
16 And the children of Israel, the priests, and the Levites, and the rest of the children of the captivity, kept the dedication of this house of God with joy,


4. The N.T. Congregation

Acts 2:1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

1 Tim. 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


5. The Millennial Temple - Ezek.

Eze 43:4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.
Eze 43:5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.


The Baptism in the Spirit has to do with the PUBLIC house of worship as an INSTITUTION for public worship. Its ordinances, qualified ministry, and services are PUBLICLY approved by God by this open manifestation of glory which occurs ONCE after the new house of God is built.

 

[The Biblicist]

What is being immersed in the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:1-3 is the New Public House of Worship - the New Testament Congregation as an INSTITUTION. This is the INSTITUTIONAL dedication as the new house of God.

The public house of God had qualified ordinances and a qualified ministry (1 Tim. 3:1-13) in "one place" (Acts 2:1; 1 Cor. 11:17,20,33,34) as the "house of God" (1 Tim. 3;15).

The new house of God was not an assembly of inorganic materials but spiritual rocks assembled together in order to offer up "acceptable sacrifices" unto God (1 Pet. 2:5; Heb. 13:15-17).

This new house of God was given an age long commission to reproduce after its own kind until Christ returns (Mt. 28:19-20). The literal fire in the previous dedications of the houses of God in the Old Testament represents the "truth" which makes the house of God "the pillar and ground of the truth" that is expressed in the three aspects of the Great Commission (right gospel, right baptism, right faith and practice) until Christ comes again.

The Baptism in the Spirt was a common Old Testament act of God that NEVER had to do with INDVIDUAL salvation of any kind. It was the public acceditation by God of His House that occurred ONCE during what the Jews called the "dedication of the house of God" after it was finished.

It was God's way of openly approving the new PUBLIC house for worship within the kingdom of God on earth. At this immersion the fire of God would come down and light the altar once and then the ordained ministry were required to perpetuate that fire keeping it burning and using it only to light the candlesticks and altar of incense in the holy place. Fire originating from any other source was "strange fire." Hence, this baptism in the Spirit was accompanied by fire and filling as manifestations of God's approval for a PUBLIC house of worship within the professing kingdom of God. This was done once at the beginning as that permenantly accredited it as the "pillar and ground of the truth" until God replaced it with another house of God.

This occurred three times in the Old Testament, first to the tabernacle, then to Solomon's Temple and to the Post Babylonian Temple of Zerubbabel.

1. The Tabernacle - Exodus 40:

Ex. 40:34 ¶ Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, .

2. Solomon's Temple - 2 Chron. 7:3

1 ¶ Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.
2 And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD’S house.
3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

3. Zerubbabel's Temple

Hag. 6:15 And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.
16 And the children of Israel, the priests, and the Levites, and the rest of the children of the captivity, kept the dedication of this house of God with joy,


4. The N.T. Congregation

Acts 2:1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

1 Tim. 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


5. The Millennial Temple - Ezek.

Eze 43:4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.
Eze 43:5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.


The Baptism in the Spirit has to do with the PUBLIC house of worship as an INSTITUTION for public worship. Its ordinances, qualified ministry, and services are PUBLICLY approved by God by this open manifestation of glory which occurs ONCE after the new house of God is built.

 

[Yeshua1]

Just curious...

We hold that be baptised in the Spirit IS refering to Him placing those nopw savedinto the Corporate Body of Christ, into the union with him!

water baptism is means that places us into local church, but the Spirit baptism, when we become in union with Body of Christ, the "Big Church"

 

[Moriah]

Regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit within HIS PEOPLE.

In the Old Testament, Israel was His People.

Regneration is SPIRITUAL UNION because it is the imparation of SPIRITUAL LIFE. Spiritual death is SPIRITUAL SEPARATION.

God's Spirit was with Israel. Now God’ Spirit lives in individuals all over the world.

Hence, if you say that the baptism IS spiritual life then it is spiritual union which is regeneration.

Before Jesus came, God’s people looked for the Messiah, the Savior. There is no saving like that of the Savior. God sent His only Son into the world to save it through him, John 3:17.

Jesus demands that the internal work of the Holy Spirit inregeneration/spiritual life preceded Pentecost and that it is essential for any man at any time anywhere to be able to enter or see the kingdom of God. (Jn. 3:3).

A remnant has always been saved from Israel. There were people in the Old Testament who had faith in God, these people belonged to God, but when Jesus came to earth, these people were given to Jesus, they were now his. They had to go through Jesus now. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus.

Jesus demand there are only two classes of human beings on earth (1) those born "of the flesh" and those "born of the Spirit" just as Paul demands there are only two classes of humans on earth (1) "in the flesh" and those (2) "in the Spirit" (Rom. 8:8-9).

Those from the Old Testament times who had died, those who had faith in God, but were not alive when Jesus came to earth…those people died, and their spirits went to heaven. They in heaven, together with all the living first Christians on earth, they witnessed the laying of the foundation; they witnessed the gospel being preached. When these witnesses who were spirits in heaven heard the good news and put their faith in Jesus, they then became perfect, along with the first Christians on earth. See Hebrews 11:40; 12:1, 22,23.

In other words from Adam to the last man born, they are all naturally born SPIRITUALLY DEAD (separated spritually from God) or supernaturally born SPIRITUALLY ALIVE (regenerated/Spiritually united). There are no third class of humans anywhere at anytime in history.

Again, no one is made perfect unless through Jesus Christ.

God’s Spirit was with those people, the people of Israel. God's Spirit did not live in every believer in the Old Testament times.

You are wrong here but how to show that to you where you can see it clearly is something only God can show you. Read all that I have to say before making any comments.

I gave you many scriptures that show you the Gentiles were separate. Why do you not acknowledge those scriptures? Ephesians 2:12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18; 19; Ephesians 3:6; Colossians 1:20; and Romans 11:25.

1. All the elect in all ages were chosen "IN" Christ before the world began "to salvation" (Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13) both Jews and GENTILES.

You leave out the rest of the scripture. The elect were chosen in Christ TO BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS. The plan was predestined, not people. Of course, God knows who would love Him before the creation of the world.

You are not saved before you are saved. If you were saved before you were saved, then why is God patient not wanting anyone to perish? 2 Peter 3:9.

4. Abel, Seth, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Rahab, Ninevites were no more related to the Jews then YOU are today. The Jews or Israel come from the seed of Jacob and before Jacob there were no such thing as Jews or Israel.

Adam to Noah, Noah to Shem, Shem to Abram, Abraham to is the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Rahab married Salmon, Salmon was the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab. They are all related, they are the forefathers that God had oaths.


Deuteronomy 7:7 The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples.

Deuteronomy 7:8 But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

Are you actually reading these scriptures?

Exodus 32:13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.'"

Deuteronomy 4:37 Because he loved your forefathers and chose their descendants after them, he brought you out of Egypt by his Presence and his great strength,

This is not about everyone, as you keep saying!

Micah 7:20 You will be true to Jacob, and show mercy to Abraham, as you pledged on oath to our fathers in days long ago.

Are you reading this? From Adam’s line came to Abraham’s line. They are all directly related.

remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world, Ephesians 2:2.

6. Old Testament saints were cleansed by the blood of Christ by faith looking forward to the cross (Acts 10:43 "for remission of sins") as we look back to the cross by faith.

Again, they were not made perfect until Jesus did shed his blood on the cross and the gospel was preached. See See Hebrews 11:40; 12:1, 22,23.

8. The Baptism in the Spirit has NOTHING to do with INDIVIDUAL salvation but with PLURAL water baptized people who are already SPIRITUALLY ALIVE/SPIRITUAL UNION with God as the new "house of God" - 1 Tim. 3:15; Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:5; 2:1 - Those saved on Pentecosts were "ADDED" to the "church" that had been meeting since Jesus gathered baptized believers around him and continually assembled with them from the time of the baptism of John (Acts 1:21-22).

To be baptized in the Spirit is an individual happening. It has to do with salvation.

Jesus gave me the Holy Spirit. Before this, I had been baptized in the Catholic Church and another time as an adult in another false religion.

Read these scriptures Mark 1:8; Luke 11:13; Acts 5:30-32; Acts 8:14; Acts 8:17; Acts 19:1-5, 6; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:43-44; Acts 11:14-15; Acts 15:7-8; John 14:15-31.