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Baptism in the Spirit
- Thread starter The Biblicist
- Start date
There was nothing foul in his mouth. Another sin, Moriah!
He was right. My reasoning was not illogical. I set before you a verse, out of context--exactly like you do--something that stands alone, contradicting the rest of the Bible, without explanation. I don't explain why it contradicts the rest of the Bible (just like you do). I just assume it is truth (when we all know it isn't.
But you can't explain the truth (if there is any) behind the verse you quoted.
So why is it illogical for me to quote a verse out of its context, and not illogical for you?
Fred's Wife
Member
I don't see the Holy Spirit "indwelling" the Old Testament saints as He does New Testament saints today (from Pentecost to the present time).
Why would David say in Psalm 51:11:
if the Holy Spirit indwelt him? Wouldn't the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the OT saints be permanent as it is in the NT saints? Are not the NT saints "sealed" with the Holy Spirit? (2 Cor. 1:22; Ephesians 1:13; 4:30)
The Holy Spirit "came upon" the OT saints to empower and enable them:
(Othniel) Judges 3:10 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the LORD delivered Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushanrishathaim.
(Gideon) Judges 6:34 But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet; and Abiezer was gathered after him.
(Jephthah) Judges 11:29 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.
(Samson) Judges 14:6 And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done.
Judges 14:19 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle. And his anger was kindled, and he went up to his father's house.
Judges 15:14 And when he came unto Lehi, the Philistines shouted against him: and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and the cords that were upon his arms became as flax that was burnt with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands.
(King Saul) 1 Samuel 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
(David) 1 Samuel 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
(Ezekiel) Ezekiel 11:5 And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the LORD; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them.
The Holy Spirit also departed from King Saul....this has not happened from Pentecost to the present time because the NT saint is "sealed" with the Holy Spirit.
1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
I agree with you that the "filling of the Holy Spirit" is not the same as the "baptism in the Holy Spirit". However, I am confused about the teaching of a pre-Pentecost "baptism in the Holy Spirit".
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
The bible states that the "new heart" was a future event to come, as the prophets all foretold that would happen when messiah came!
God saved those under Old Covenant on basis of that messiah to come, thru their faith in him, but they were not sealed by Hs, as ONLY those with offices like prophets and Kings were such!
the Lord did NOT have a personal relationship/union as he does NOW thru the messiah and in the presense of his Sprit, for they came thru priests and sacrifies, so was NOT same as now under New Covenant...
hebrews and Romans make it clear the vast superority of the new Covenant ushered in by messiah!
He is not talking about the indwelling presence of the Spirit but of the joy of salvation provided by the Spirit within him. Sin breaks fellowship then and now with the indwelling Holy Spirit. Moreover, the Holy Spirit was given in the sense of special operations or power to administer certain leadership positions or functions.
The Spirit of God IS the seal and yes He sealed them as He does us. David believed in the eternal security of the believer (Psa. 89:28-38) and believed that the Spirit of God would never leave him in the sense of indwelling and He would be guided here by the Spirit and afterwards recieved into glory.
The same language is used for the Holy Spirit upon New Testament believers in Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them:
The Spirit came upon lost kings to give them adminstrative leadership and skills as in the case of Cyrus. The departure of the Spirit from Saul had to do with his rebellion in the office of king..[/QUOTE]
That is not true! They were commanded to seek after such a new heart right then and there:
De 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. - NO FUTURE TENSE
Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings. - NO FUTURE TENSE
You obviously do not know the meaning of being "sealed." David and other Prophets teach eternal security of the saint in many places (Psa. 89:28-38; 2 Sam. 23:5) or have you never heard of the "SURE mercies of David"?
Apparently you never read hebrews 11 and the pre-Mosaic saints and their relationship with God.
The only thing ushered in was the PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION of the new Covenant and ratification by blood. There is no salvation from Genesis to Revelation under any other covenant but the "everlasting covenant" of grace. Noah "found grace" not the covenant of the law or works. Abraham was justified by grace (Rom. 4:2-4; 16) and justifying faith is always of the covenant of "grace" (Rom. 4:16).
You are simply ignorant of the truth of the covenant of grace. It is an everlasting covenant because ALL the elect were chosen "in him" before the world began and they were chosen "TO salvation THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit" - 2 Thes. 2:13. There is no other covenant of salvation - none, zilch, nada!
I have spelled this out in other posts. During the dedication service of every new house of God in the Old Testament there was an immersion of that house in the shikinah glory and fire from heaven to light to consume the sacrfice on the brazen altar and that fire was never to die out as long as that house continued on earth. It was the preists responsibility to keep it kindled. Hence, it was a historical one time event at the beginning of each new house of God which publicly accredited that house, ordinances, ministry, worship as acceptable to God and at that point God indwelt it as His "house."
This occurred with the Tabernacle (Ex. 40)
This occurred with the Temple of Solomon (2 Chron. 7:1-3)
This occurred with the Rebuilt Temple of Zerrubabbel
This occured with the N.T. Congregation - Acts 2:1-3.
That is not what I said. I said that "miarcles, signs and wonders" were "THE SIGNS" of the apostles, (2 Cor. 12:12) or the "power" given on the day of Pentecost to the church office of apostle to establish and confirm a permenant "witness" to Jesus Christ and His teachings - THE NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES.
1. None but apostles performed miracles signs and wonders from Acts 2 to Acts 6
2. None but those upon whom the apostles hands were laid performed miracles signs and wonders from Acts 6 to Acts 28
3. The congregations in Rome did not receive any of these sign gifts as none are listed in Romans 12 and that is one reason why Paul wished to come to them so to impart unto them such "spiritual gifts" - Rom. 1:11
4. These signs gifts ceased when the apostles died and those upon whom they bestowed them died (Heb. 2:3-4; Mk 16:20) as a permenant "Witness" had been established and confirmed.
5. Today "miracles, signs and LYING wonders" are the signs of apostacy not of New Testament Christianity - Mt. 24:24-25; 2 Thes. 2:9-13
the holy spirit worked in a different fashin during OT times!
ONLY those with specif roles/offices sucha s prophets/kings/Judges eyc had Him come upon them, and it was usually for times God was doing a special thing...
The "laity" did NOT have Him that way, as they approached God thru sacrifices and the priests, as there was a veil still before them and god, ONLY removed when yeshua died!
There is ONLY ONE way to be saved, by basis of death of christ and faith placed in him, but MANY seperate dispensations/covenants in the bible!
ONLY those with specif roles/offices sucha s prophets/kings/Judges eyc had Him come upon them, and it was usually for times God was doing a special thing...
The "laity" did NOT have Him that way, as they approached God thru sacrifices and the priests, as there was a veil still before them and god, ONLY removed when yeshua died!
There is ONLY ONE way to be saved, by basis of death of christ and faith placed in him, but MANY seperate dispensations/covenants in the bible!
I provided Biblical evidence to prove that circumcision of the heart was actual and applied before Pentecost - not predictive but present. You have not provided any response but PERSONAL OPINION that is directly opposed to God's Word.
Other than prophets/priests/kings of OT, WHAT verses support that He came and sealed/indwelt all OT believers?
Also, what I hold to is NOT that uncommon, as believe many would see a clear difference between the old and new covenants in regards to this discussion!
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1. The verses that are not future tense descriptions of circumcision of the heart which I provided you.
2. The verses that teach the security of Old Testament believers which I provided you ("sure mercies of David" and Psalms 89; etc.) which David applies to ALL CHILDREN of the Messanic Covenant.
3. Caleb who wrote nothing, was not a Preist, was not a king but obeyed the Lord in all things all his life - progressive sanctification/walk by faith.
the Lord honored his faith in believing that God gave them the land trod upon, but where did it say that thru the Holy spirit, he would become confirmed into image of Christ?[/quote]
In other words you are demanding that if the technical langauge found in the New Testament is not found in the Old Testament then the doctrine is not found in the Old Testament?
Where in the Old Testament does it say that Abraham was "justified by faith"??? Does that make Paul a liar because the Old Testament does not use that precise New Testament langauge?????
Jesus tells Nicodemus that he should know about being "born again" but where in the Old Testament do we find the exact words "born again" except by Christ BEFORE Pentecost?
Progressive sanctification by practical definition is walking by faith and pleasing God by your life. Will you deny those listed in Hebrew 11 did not walk by faith and were not pleasing to God?
Do you know of any other standard that is pleasing to God than the righteousness found in the life of Christ?
You are using the same kind of theological nonsense that cults do when they deny the doctrine of the Trinity. They ask where in scripture can you find the word "Trinity" as though that is a triump and as though the doctrine is not in the New Testament.
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Where do you get the idea that Jesus was quoting Jeremiah in John 3:3-7 and where does Jeremiah use the expression "born again" or "born of the Spirit" or "born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is spirit"???????
He had come but the cross had not come and yet he tells Nicodemus not merely he must be born again but "except a man" is born again they can neither see or enter the kingdom of God.
jeremiah is what he would have realised jesus was referncing!
he was telling Him that one must be born again, move of the Spirit, and that he should be trusting Him as the Son of God!
Not only can you provide no scripture to support your theory but now you are making them up as you go! I would seriously reconsider any position that requires you to go to such extremes.