POPE:You don't have to believe in God to Get to Heaven

[Zaac]

Pope Francis assures sceptics: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven

In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences.

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

Robert Mickens, the Vatican correspondent for the Catholic journal The Tablet, said the pontiff’s comments were further evidence of his attempts to shake off the Catholic Church’s fusty image, reinforced by his extremely conservative predecessor Benedict XVI. “Francis is a still a conservative,” said Mr Mickens. “But what this is all about is him seeking to have a more meaningful dialogue with the world.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...o-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

 

[Aaron]

. . . non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences.

This is the conclusion of all noncalvinist thought.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

This is the conclusion of all noncalvinist thought.

Oh, ********!! I'm not a Calvinist and I have no problem rejecting such nonsense.You really need to get off the high horse. It's a long fall when he finally throws you.

 

[Revmitchell]

That is not what the pope said. I would encourage everyone to read his actual words.

 

[Aaron]

Oh, ********!! I'm not a Calvinist and I have no problem rejecting such nonsense.You really need to get off the high horse. It's a long fall when he finally throws you.

Ask most noncalvinists what happens to those who've never heard the Gospel.

 

[Revmitchell]

Ask most noncalvinists what happens to those who've never heard the Gospel.

Prove anyone never hears the gospel

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

That is not what the pope said. I would encourage everyone to read his actual words.

And that's the other point. Shoulda said it myself, instead of jumping all over Aaron. Thanks for pointing that out, Rev.

 

[Aaron]

Prove anyone never hears the gospel

According to most noncalvinists, infants don't hear the Gospel and can't exercise faith. Therefore, there is one class of person, according to most noncalvinists, that doesn't have to believe in God to get to Heaven.

That reasoning is extended to mentally retarded adults as well, so there's another class.

So, IF there were some tribe somewhere that never heard the Gospel, you would say they aren't accountable, and do not need faith to enter.

 

[annsni]

Calvinist/Non-calvinist aside.

This is just wrong.

Here are his exact words from the article:

“You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Calvinist/Non-calvinist aside.

This is just wrong.

Here are his exact words from the article:

And nothing about that statement says Atheists go to heaven. All it asserts is that, if anything, God forgives those who come to him in a contrite heart for forgiveness. And more particularly, Atheists should adhere to their conscience as Paul said

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. - Romans 2:14

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Calvinist/Non-calvinist aside.

This is just wrong.

Here are his exact words from the article:

“You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

What part of that isn't true, Ann? Does the sinner not have to be contrite in their approach to God? Is the sinner who seeks God not led by their conscience to do so? (Note to other members: I don't want any Calvinistic doctrine thrown at this comment because the Bible does not teach that man has no responsibility whatsoever, so don't even bother! This thread isn't about Calvinism so take it somewhere else.) And finally, Ann, is it not possible for a sinner to have guilt over that sin?

Essentially, these are the points Francis is making. He said absolutely nothing, as the title of the thread claims, about not needing to believe in God. That's a massive erroneous leap to a wrong conclusion, reading into what he said something that is not there.

 

[webdog]

This is the conclusion of all noncalvinist thought.

Strange...I was thinking the pope sounded like you and the rest of hyper cal's.

 

[annsni]

What part of that isn't true, Ann? Does the sinner not have to be contrite in their approach to God? Is the sinner who seeks God not led by their conscience to do so? (Note to other members: I don't want any Calvinistic doctrine thrown at this comment because the Bible does not teach that man has no responsibility whatsoever, so don't even bother! This thread isn't about Calvinism so take it somewhere else.) And finally, Ann, is it not possible for a sinner to have guilt over that sin?

Essentially, these are the points Francis is making. He said absolutely nothing, as the title of the thread claims, about not needing to believe in God. That's a massive erroneous leap to a wrong conclusion, reading into what he said something that is not there.

Well, if a person obeys their conscience - and their conscience is wrong Biblically - it sounds like sin is not present according to the Pope. If one doesn't believe in Jesus for salvation, do they get a second chance after death? When are they repentant? They are either repentant for salvation (which I totally agree with) or they stand before the judgment throne and are repentant - which they will be - and they go to hell because they didn't believe when they had the chance. What is a "sincere and contrite heart"? You are either saved or you are not. A sincere and contrite heart will not save you if you are not trusting in the blood of Jesus for salvation.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Well, if a person obeys their conscience - and their conscience is wrong Biblically - it sounds like sin is not present according to the Pope.

Doesn't sound anything like that. In fact the Pope spoke about forgiving a person with a contrite heart who comes to God for forgiveness. Ie

God's mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart

and as conscience let me once again bring up Romans 2:14

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. - Romans 2:14

It is clear then that there is a mechanism within the Human being non believer and believer alike that has an intuitive guide to wrong and right. Let me refer you to C.S. Lewis

EVERY ONE HAS HEARD people quarreling. Sometimes it sounds funny and sometimes it sounds merely unpleasant; but however it sounds, I believe we can learn something very important from listening to the kinds of things they say. They say things like this: "How’d you like it if anyone did the same to you?"--‘That’s my seat, I was there first"--"Leave him alone, he isn’t doing you any harm"--"Why should you shove in first?"--"Give me a bit of your orange, I gave you a bit of mine"--"Come on, you promised." People say things like that every day, educated people as well as uneducated, and children as well as grown-ups.

Now what interests me about all these remarks is that the man who makes them is not merely saying that the other man’s behavior does not happen to please him. He is appealing to some kind of standard of behavior which he expects the other man to know about. -CS LEWIS

 

[annsni]

Doesn't sound anything like that. In fact the Pope spoke about forgiving a person with a contrite heart who comes to God for forgiveness. Ie and as conscience let me once again bring up Romans 2:14 It is clear then that there is a mechanism within the Human being non believer and believer alike that has an intuitive guide to wrong and right. Let me refer you to C.S. Lewis

If he speaks of one coming to Christ then yes, God forgives them.

What if they stand at the throne of judgment after denying God all their lives and now suddenly are standing there saying "I'm sorry!! I'm so sorry!!!!"??

 

[Bro. James]

Sounds like his eminence has not been to total depravity of man class lately. All of us need to review our depravity often. It helps us to realize the totality of God's Grace.

"All have sinned and come short of God's Glory"

"Salvation is of The Lord"

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If he speaks of one coming to Christ then yes, God forgives them.

What if they stand at the throne of judgment after denying God all their lives and now suddenly are standing there saying "I'm sorry!! I'm so sorry!!!!"??

I think that after a life of denying God there will be no contrition for a sinful life after that persons death.

The Catholic Church teaches quite clearly what happens in that case (as does the bible)

Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. - CCC

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If he speaks of one coming to Christ then yes, God forgives them.

What if they stand at the throne of judgment after denying God all their lives and now suddenly are standing there saying "I'm sorry!! I'm so sorry!!!!"??

In today's language...Christ tells you that your SOL.

 

[Aaron]

I've identifed two classes of man which, according to noncalvinists, may enter Heaven without faith in Christ.

And now they're arguing that the remaining classes merely need sincerity to do so.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And if I may depart from the OP for a moment...If I evaluate my own life's 32 years as a Roman Catholic, I have to state that sin was embraced as a reality to human nature & so it was the works that were emphasized as the redeeming grace...you had to act...you had to do something to further the kingdom. I have seen allot of puffs masquerading as priests...but ive also seen some really serious men who were masculine and served as priests...who would walk the streets helping people (every day). Conversely as a non-catholic over 25 years now I have only observed one pastor (a PC- USA) guy who went out...take that back....two Presbyterians who went out to people. In scripture John 20 : 27. Have we forgotten.