Says a lot about the Character of R.C. Jr vs Tullian , doesn't it?
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Ligonier Suspends R.C. Sproul Jr. Over Ashley Madison Use
- Thread starter Revmitchell
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Praying for him.
I can see how loneliness after losing his wife would cause him to do that. I'm sorry he found himself in that temptation, but I'm glad he recognized that he was sinning and left.
Very few people just dive headlong into sin. Most play around the edge for a while and then get pulled in.
We all do that from time to time and I think it's only the grace of God that prevents us from giving in.
Because RC Jr has been very forthcoming and there was no "This is a vast left wing conspiracy" or denials or justification, I have to wonder if God allowed this so that the world could see Godly repentance and the restoration and reconciliation that's available in Christ when the Church loves a brother in sin enough to discipline him.
I'm very sorry this happened for a number of reasons, but I'm also very proud of my brothers in Christ at Ligonier and very grateful that we serve a forgiving God.
I can see how loneliness after losing his wife would cause him to do that. I'm sorry he found himself in that temptation, but I'm glad he recognized that he was sinning and left.
Very few people just dive headlong into sin. Most play around the edge for a while and then get pulled in.
We all do that from time to time and I think it's only the grace of God that prevents us from giving in.
Because RC Jr has been very forthcoming and there was no "This is a vast left wing conspiracy" or denials or justification, I have to wonder if God allowed this so that the world could see Godly repentance and the restoration and reconciliation that's available in Christ when the Church loves a brother in sin enough to discipline him.
I'm very sorry this happened for a number of reasons, but I'm also very proud of my brothers in Christ at Ligonier and very grateful that we serve a forgiving God.
Leaders have a high standard...PERIOD! Disqualified? I say yes indeed!
I am praying for R.C. Sproul, Jr., that his written repentance is equaled by his actions. According to his words he has been suspended by Ligonier until July 1, 2016 and is being held accountable by his presbytery. What R.C. Sproul, Jr. did was sinful, but I am not going to heap undue criticism upon him. It seems as though he is taking appropriate steps by confessing his sin (without qualification), and submitting to his church leadership. This is different than what Tullian Tchividhian did after his moral failure became public.
As we watch the implosion of the Evangelical church, it is refreshing to see that some Christians still believe in purity.
RC Sproul Jr's Ashley Madison spin
Nothing about Sproul's story sits right with me. What few blog articles I read about it don't seem helpful. Here's one article though that seemed to shed some light. http://rc-sproul-jr.blogspot.com/2015/09/rc-sproul-jr-only-visited-ashley-madison.html The author seems pretty cynical about Sproul and maybe he has good cause for it. The whole thing with Sproul being suspended with pay really bothers me. I thought Ligonier was disciplining him, but as the author points out they're just giving him a long paid vacation.
Nothing about Sproul's story sits right with me. What few blog articles I read about it don't seem helpful. Here's one article though that seemed to shed some light. http://rc-sproul-jr.blogspot.com/2015/09/rc-sproul-jr-only-visited-ashley-madison.html The author seems pretty cynical about Sproul and maybe he has good cause for it. The whole thing with Sproul being suspended with pay really bothers me. I thought Ligonier was disciplining him, but as the author points out they're just giving him a long paid vacation.
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Yes, you can look at it as a long paid vacation if he were just told "Don't come into the office for 2 months" but instead, I believe he is also undergoing counseling as well AND he has lost his ability to teach as he has been doing and loved all this time. Finally, this has also affected his reputation which I'm sure hurts quite a bit as well. It is common to suspend someone with pay for an offense. I believe this was an appropriate response.
The blog profile appears to be satirical. The profile picture is actually of RC Sproul Jr himself who's alleged to have a serious drinking problem. Whether or not that's currently the case or not it's hard to say. But past accounts of his drinking abuses seem well substantiated.
You might be right about that. I wouldn't know. Even if it is common that doesn't make it right. Someone has to foot the bill for it. In this case Sproul's six figure salary for no work is being foisted off on Ligonier Ministry donors without their knowledge or consent. That just seems wrong to me and it's certainly no punishment.
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I guess you've never been in ministry. Trust me, this is punishment.
I do not know that punishment is the goal. Certainly discipleship and counseling. They guy has to support his family.
How about actual church discipline rather than susension from the family business?
Sproul Jr. remains an elder at 'Heritage Church':
https://heritagecenterville.org/leadership
For those here fixated on Tullian, are you unaware that R.C. Jr. was defrocked in previous scandal, and popped up as an elder in another Reformed denomination after a few months.?
Sproul Jr. remains an elder at 'Heritage Church':
https://heritagecenterville.org/leadership
For those here fixated on Tullian, are you unaware that R.C. Jr. was defrocked in previous scandal, and popped up as an elder in another Reformed denomination after a few months.?
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I would need to know more about the situation in order to comment on it. What was the scandal, what was the discipline, did he leave the church against the directive of his leadership?
Right you are, but sorry I can't see it as punishment. I'm getting quite an education today though from the clergy. I had no idea Christian ministers believed such things. I'm definitely in the wrong line of work. I didn't know working for a ministry could be such a gravy train. A six figure one year paid vacation and you call it "punishment." Who would have thought? In my line of work if I got suspended there'd be no pay. I wouldn't be able to just sit home for a year and take it easy. I'd have to find another source of income until I was reinstated. This is just another reason so many people have grown so cynical about the church and parachurch ministries. It's even worse than I thought -- a very protected and elite class, and double standards galore.
Except there's no mention anywhere, anyplace, that Sproul is receiving discipleship and counseling. Sproul doesn't say so. Ligonier doesn't say so (in fact they don't even mention anywhere that he was even suspended). His church doesn't say so. And btw he's still listed as a pastor of his church. I wouldn't just assume he's in counseling or being discipled. If it were happening wouldn't any of them want to say so, and especially Sproul himself? Instead he's concealing it with they're handling it internally.
As for "The guy has to support his family," that's a classic example of a double standard. Earlier in the thread I saw some negative comments about another preacher's "moral failure" and comparing it to the RC Sproul Jr thing, "This [RC Sproul Jr suspension] is different than what Tullian Tchividhian did after his moral failure became public." The Tullian Tchividjian Back in Active Ministry thread contains many comments that I agree with, including by you Ann and Revmitchel.. I won't be the one to claim the two situations are entirely equivalent, but others here have posted comments making the comparison, so let's go with that. Tchividhian wasn't suspended with pay. He resigned, which was the right thing for him to do. Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church brought charges against him and he was deposed from the ministry, again the right thing to do. Tullian was disciplined, and very seriously so, not just slapped on the wrist with a one year paid vacation.
A week later Tullian gets hired at Willowcreek as director of ministry development. Many complained over that, including Ann and Revmitchell. Ann said, "This man is right at this time absolutely disqualified from any service in the church at this time and any time in the near future." Pretty strong judgment Ann, and I agree with you. Revmitchell, you made some strong judgments too, even though Tullian is not pastoring or teaching or ministering. He's only in an admin role. So why doesn't "The guy has to support his family," apply to Tullian too Revmitchell?
As Reformed said in that thread, "What the shepherd does the sheep mimic." I couldn't agree more. We've got people in ministry here saying that Tullian wasn't dealt with harshly enough and Sproul's one year paid vacation is "punishment." As the article I linked to makes more than obvious RC Sproul Jr's own moral failures are far worse than you seem to grasp. Perhaps you should at least read it before commenting further. If you fail to see how you're applying double standards then don't be surprised when members of your own churches follow your own example to justify their own bad ethics and moral failures.
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It's none of our business.
Ann, RC Sproul Jr's defrocking was pretty big news in Presby church circles in 2006. Lots of details about it at RC Sproul Jr Defrocking Documents. The defrocking should have caused Sproul to go away and spend some protracted time in prayer and quiet reflection, preparing his heart to reenter the ministry in due course. Instead he fought to retain his pastorate and turned it into a complete scandal. Ligonier Ministries ignored the defrocking and immediately featured him as a preacher as though he'd never been defrocked. It was utterly shameful.
The Ashley Madison scandal isn't his first rodeo, so I'll admit he's tamped this scandal down a lot more shrewdly than he did his defrocking. I think it's for good reason that blog I linked to calls him Spinderella Sproul.
.........Bingo.
I see that all of that had to do with the Session and not just RC personally. Is this correct?
RC Sproul Jr was the ringleader of it all and the three other pastors were complicit with him in all the charges, including "abuse of authority in an inexcusable manner." Sproul's tax fraud and identity theft appears to have been one of the only charges where he acted on his own.
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