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Ligonier Suspends R.C. Sproul Jr. Over Ashley Madison Use
- Thread starter Revmitchell
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I'm seeing that too.
The Double Standard Treatment Of Tullian Tchividjian and RC Sproul Jr
And I've seen a pervasive agenda here too.
Thanks for confirming my suspicions about the clergy. I've long seen many examples of the clergy in America treating themselves, and each other, as a privileged class, setting themselves up as arbiters of moral judgment, but also prone to go to great lengths in protecting their own, or at least their personal favorites. If they don't like the way the criticism is flowing they'll shut it down with a pious, "It's none of our business," even though it was they who started the dialogue in the first place.
But they also do so very selectively. There are certain select circumstances under which one of their own can be harshly judged for their sins while others, who are also guilty of serious "moral failures" will receive a pass, and with no logical explanation for the glaring inconsistencies in judgment. Theirs isn't a system of godly justice judged by God's standards but rather by their own social biases. Double standards are completely acceptable because the clergy remain oblivious to the utter hypocrisy of their own pharisaical judgments.
They'll come down extremely hard on a guy like Tullian, judging him worthy of a lifetime ban on the ministry, including even if it's only in an admin role, while giving a pass to a reprobate like Sproul, even endorsing his one year paid vacation and calling it "punishment." I didn't start this thread on Sproul, ya'll did, and some of you outright praised him. I merely stepped in to point out there's another side of the story that's worthy of at least knowing about. Ah, but you don't want to know and run the risk of having your collective fantasy thinking tarnished with a heavy dose of reality? Why not just be honest and say so rather than playing the "It's none of our business" card and "Oh, we can disregard Geoff because he obviously has an agenda"? Such mendacity.
Yes, you can say I have an agenda, but it's not so much about RC Jr, anymore than it's about Tullian. They just happen to make ideal examples of the clergy double standard treatment I'm talking about. My agenda is about phariseeism in the church and the mendacity of its clergy. It's pretty obvious from your reactions that I've stepped on some toes by pointing it out; but I'm not your problem. Rather than dismissing me with a wave of the hand, why not examine the attitudes of your own hearts and see how you might benefit from this exchange?
And I've seen a pervasive agenda here too.
Thanks for confirming my suspicions about the clergy. I've long seen many examples of the clergy in America treating themselves, and each other, as a privileged class, setting themselves up as arbiters of moral judgment, but also prone to go to great lengths in protecting their own, or at least their personal favorites. If they don't like the way the criticism is flowing they'll shut it down with a pious, "It's none of our business," even though it was they who started the dialogue in the first place.
But they also do so very selectively. There are certain select circumstances under which one of their own can be harshly judged for their sins while others, who are also guilty of serious "moral failures" will receive a pass, and with no logical explanation for the glaring inconsistencies in judgment. Theirs isn't a system of godly justice judged by God's standards but rather by their own social biases. Double standards are completely acceptable because the clergy remain oblivious to the utter hypocrisy of their own pharisaical judgments.
They'll come down extremely hard on a guy like Tullian, judging him worthy of a lifetime ban on the ministry, including even if it's only in an admin role, while giving a pass to a reprobate like Sproul, even endorsing his one year paid vacation and calling it "punishment." I didn't start this thread on Sproul, ya'll did, and some of you outright praised him. I merely stepped in to point out there's another side of the story that's worthy of at least knowing about. Ah, but you don't want to know and run the risk of having your collective fantasy thinking tarnished with a heavy dose of reality? Why not just be honest and say so rather than playing the "It's none of our business" card and "Oh, we can disregard Geoff because he obviously has an agenda"? Such mendacity.
Yes, you can say I have an agenda, but it's not so much about RC Jr, anymore than it's about Tullian. They just happen to make ideal examples of the clergy double standard treatment I'm talking about. My agenda is about phariseeism in the church and the mendacity of its clergy. It's pretty obvious from your reactions that I've stepped on some toes by pointing it out; but I'm not your problem. Rather than dismissing me with a wave of the hand, why not examine the attitudes of your own hearts and see how you might benefit from this exchange?
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Let me guess, you are part of the house church movement? So you show up here, have no relationships with anyone and start condemning everyone. You do understand your behavior is trollish. Your only purpose is to raise emotions and stir people up and you have to engage in gossip in order to do that. Sorry of I step on your toes.
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You're not stepping on my toes Revmitchell. You might only be able to do that if you were accurately judging me. "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." If you ever start to do that I'll likely thank you for it and do something about it. Lord knows I'm still far from the man I want to be in Christ.
Thanks for the question about house churches, even though it has nothing at all to do with this dialogue, and seems like yet another attempt to evade the issues I've expressed. House churches? As in how the church met up until the time Constantine paganized the church in the fourth century? No, I've never been a part of it. I don't endorse it, but I don't condemn it either. I don't know enough about it to have come to an informed opinion. I'm an SBC church member. My pastor shares the same concerns I've expressed here about the clergy and he's working to change that mindset and bring greater accountability within the SBC. He doesn't agree that Sproul should have gotten a one year paid vacation, nor does he view his suspension with pay as punishment or discipline. I'm grateful my pastor doesn't evidence the sorts of issues I've raised here (not that he's without his own unique set of issues, but at least he's open to dealing with them). If only there were more like him.
Hmmm...maybe it is a reformed thing. Anyway I shudder to think your pastor would engage in gossip in order to promote and agenda.
The charge of "Gossip" is the self same specious argument as "It's none of our business." It's only "gossip" when someone is making a strong case for which you have nothing to counter it with. So you try and shame them into silence with the "gossip" label and it's twin brother "It's none of our business." But when you engage in the same behavior yourself (which you do, Revmitchell, as evidenced in the Tillian thread and many other threads too), are you guilty of gossip? No, you're not, and that's one of the few points we might agree on. The difference between us is that I know what gossip is and, therefore, I'm not one to slander a brother with such a label, as you have just done by slandering my pastor with "engaging in gossip."
I actively support and encourage honest dialogue, even debate where it's called for. "Iron sharpens iron." I'm not an insecure clergyman with a compulsion to shut others down when they raise issues that offend my sensibilities. The most significant areas of spiritual growth that have ever happened in my life usually occurred because a brother was loving and courageous enough to confront me in a way that totally rocked my world. It may hurt at first, or it may offend my sensibilities. If I were insecure the first thing I'd do is shut them down with, "It's none of your business" or "You're just listening to gossip." But then my growth in Christ would also be seriously hampered, and that's not what I want.
So thanks once again for helping to make my point about clergy double standards. If you'd like to actually start to engage, rather than evade, any of the points I've made, I'd welcome it.
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Uh no, its gossip because its gossip. In fact I have been consistent with this type of thing over the years on this board. Your only goal is to place them in the worst possible light. You are not trying to lift anyone up you are working to tear them down to fit your agenda. What they do is none of our business. This is also called being a busybody. You do not go around talking about people like this. Shame on you and your pastor if in fact this is what he is doing also.
Seriously? Let's see:
Tullian: wife had an affair, HE had an affair, he filed for divorce
Sproul: visited a website, left an e-mail and left, knowing it was wrong But the interesting thing is that his wife is dead. He is a widower. He is no longer married. He can find another woman if he wishes and it is not wrong. What would be wrong would be to have an intimate relationship with her before they are married.
So you are trying to say that they are the same or even that Sproul's actions are worse than Tullian's? Interesting. There is no "pass" here no matter what you say.
It is interesting that you are so against the clergy. Are you in a good solid church under good leadership or are you a lone ranger? What is your present circumstances with a church?
I saw that after I posted.
You most certainly have given Sproul a pass, and the fact that you're parroting Sproul's narrative, rather than examining the evidence, is proof of it. Is it your normal practice to not do any fact checking? As http://rc-sproul-jr.blogspot.com/2015/09/rc-sproul-jr-only-visited-ashley-madison.html overwhelmingly proves Sproul is lying to cover up the magnitude of his sin. His sin was a lot worse than merely "wrong", and it was two-fold, registering for an Ashley Madison account (he did not just "visit") and then lying about it to conceal the full magnitude of just how bad it was. Tragically you've bought the lie.
Ann, you and several others here spoke very favorably of Sproul, and some even compared his actions to Tullian. Ya'll did so in ignorance but it was an honest mistake. All I've done is encourage you to examine the other side of the story by reading that article. Is that really such a scary prospect that you have to continue evading it? I found that article informative and extremely helpful to being able to come to a more informed conclusion. I don't want to be guilty of praising the actions of a deceiver like Sproul or holding him up to others as an example for how preachers should repent when they've been caught, or about to be caught, in a grevious sin. Sproul's actions are deplorable and should not be followed. But if you refuse to read the article you'll never know that, and you're likely to continue holding up Sproul as an honorable example when you really shouldn't. Your choice.
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I get that you don't see it, Ann, or rather you're disinclined to see it. I've said all that needs to be said to you.
Perhaps others will will more thoughtfully consider the significant implications of RC Sproul Jr's Ashley Madison scandal, implications which I believe are potentially more harmful to the church than the Tullian scandal because of the craftiness and deception employed by Sproul.
What I see is someone engaging in gossip, ungodly innuendo, accusing, and a determination to slander a man. It is shameful and just as sinful as the accusations he is leveling against a fellow brother in Christ.
This is a sad thread. It serves no beneficial purpose for the body of Christ.
Six Hour Warning
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