Two Corinthians

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

In the long run, it matters not whether one says second corinthians or two Corinthians. With regard to Trump saying it and it being said in America (where Trump gave the statement) it is common English vernacular to say second Corinthians and rather odd to say two Corinthians. It may be common elsewhere but in the states, it is not common.

Trump's use is not likely a result of not being a Christian as it is his lack of use of the Bible especially in Christian circles.

No matter what it was hardly worthy of the tittering and correction of a bunch of students. Trump had more than enough to be critical of, I can't believe he is being taken seriously, but two or second Corinthians is not how I am going to judge him.

 

[InTheLight]

No matter what it was hardly worthy of the tittering and correction of a bunch of students. Trump had more than enough to be critical of, I can't believe he is being taken seriously, but two or second Corinthians is not how I am going to judge him.

Obviously, Trump needs to assimilate and speak in the American vernacular. Ha!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[Revmitchell]

No matter what it was hardly worthy of the tittering and correction of a bunch of students. Trump had more than enough to be critical of, I can't believe he is being taken seriously, but two or second Corinthians is not how I am going to judge him.

Ok well good for you. Neither is it worth judging those who communicate an opinion over it.

 

[Salty]

It's actually 'biblical' lol.

My Bible says '2 Corinthians, 2 Timothy, 1 Timothy' and etc. It does not say 1st, 2nd or 3rd.

Must not be the KJV!

 

[SovereignGrace]

I think the reason why evangelicals like him is his 'Merry Christmas' support stance.

 

[preachinjesus]

True. I guess we'll need to get one of the Greek scholars in here to make a determination.
Biggrin

The titles of the books of the NT, and OT for that matter, are added later.

What might be interesting to note here is that 1 Corinthians is likely the second letter written to the Corinthians by Paul and 2 Corinthians is, perhaps, the fourth letter written with a missing first and third letters.

 

[Rob_BW]

The titles of the books of the NT, and OT for that matter, are added later.

What might be interesting to note here is that 1 Corinthians is likely the second letter written to the Corinthians by Paul and 2 Corinthians is, perhaps, the fourth letter written with a missing first and third letters.

But did NT Greek have words for second, third, and etc., or did they just label them one, two...

 

[TCassidy]

Mine says ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α and ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Β. So, I guess you are all wrong.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Mine says ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α and ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Β. So, I guess you are all wrong.

I have read where 'A' and 'B' were in the originals.

 

[TCassidy]

I have read where 'A' and 'B' were in the originals.

Hindu-Arabic numerals did not come into common use until the late 4th century. Prior to that numbers were first represented by letters in alphabetic order, and later by Roman numerals using common letter orthography.

 

[Rippon]

Obama on December 9.2014 :
The good book says, don't throw stones in glass houses.

 

[kyredneck]

Obama on December 9.2014 :
The good book says, don't throw stones in glass houses.

Lol, I wish I had a list of 'scriptural gaffes' from all the presidents and wannabes....

 

[Benjamin]

I'd love to have even a tiny inkling of where he was going with that verse!!

He was probably just trying to follow Dr. Ben Carson's lead

Dr. Ben Carson’s recent campaign direction:

Liberal progressives in Ohio recently have filed a lawsuit attempting to remove "In God We Trust" from our nation's currency. This group of atheists is so offended by God that they cannot identify Him by name in the lawsuit.

I hope that you will stand with me in ensuring that trusting in God remains a core principle of our nation. Let's urge President Obama and the Justice Department to defend our nation's motto and affirm our Judeo-Christian values.

To sign my petition click here: crsn.co/InGodWeTrustPetition


Dr. Ben Carson on Face Book:

Change your profile picture to you holding a "In God We Trust" sign if you believe God should remain a core principle of our nation.


Dr. Ben Carson relating "his" values to the lottery:

We need to stop being afraid of who we are and our identity. America is a nation founded on Judaeo-Christian values and liberals progressives do not get to dictate what kind of a nation we are. I am proud to have been born in this country and feel as though I have won the lottery every day.

 

[preachinjesus]

But did NT Greek have words for second, third, and etc., or did they just label them one, two...

Certainly there are Greek words for one, two, and three...but the books of the NT were transmitted without titles. Only later were they given ones like "To the Corinthians" or "To the Romans" or "Matthew's Gospel" or "The Apocalypse."

Since the vast majority of Christians in the first century (and people in general) were illiterate, titles wouldn't have mattered much. There is evidence of the development of the NT books (and OT for that matter) within some patristic writing from the early centuries prior to formal canonization.

 

[TCassidy]

the books of the NT were transmitted without titles. Only later were they given ones like "To the Corinthians" or "To the Romans" or "Matthew's Gospel" or "The Apocalypse."

Uh, you might want to do a little more study on the subject. P-66, one of the oldest, if not the oldest, Greek manuscript of the New Testament witnesses the fact that such manuscripts were, in fact, published containing the titles. P-4 and P-75, also dating to the same period as P-66, also contain the titles.

 

[kyredneck]

Certainly there are Greek words for one, two, and three...but the books of the NT were transmitted without titles. Only later were they given ones like "To the Corinthians" or "To the Romans" or "Matthew's Gospel" or "The Apocalypse."

But Paul DID write these salutations, right?:

Romans:
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God.....To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I Corinthians:
Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours:

2 Corinthians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints that are in the whole of Achaia:

Galatians:
Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead), and all the brethren that are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Ephesians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians:
Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus that are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ that are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

1 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.

2 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Saviour, and Christ Jesus our hope; unto Timothy, my true child in faith: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, according to the promise of the life which is in Christ Jesus, to Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus:
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God`s elect, and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,......to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

Philemon:
Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon our beloved and fellow-worker, and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow-soldier, and to the church in thy house:

PAUL wrote these, NOT someone else decades or centuries later, right?

....There is evidence of the development of the NT books (and OT for that matter) within some patristic writing from the early centuries prior to formal canonization.

What does this mean? "Development of the NT books...from the early centuries". When I'm reading Pauline epistles I'm reading the writings of Paul, NOT someone else's "development" decades or centuries later, right? Or are you implying something else?

 

[preachinjesus]

Uh, you might want to do a little more study on the subject. P-66, one of the oldest, if not the oldest, Greek manuscript of the New Testament witnesses the fact that such manuscripts were, in fact, published containing the titles. P-4 and P-75, also dating to the same period as P-66, also contain the titles.

The transmission here was from the originals. It is unlikely that the originals contained headers or identifications such as "2 Corinthians" "Epistle to the Romans" "Gospel of Matthew" or "The Apocalypse." The texts were simply written and sent from the authors.

As for your textual data:
P-66 is from approximately AD 195/200 so it isn't extant. It does indeed have a header and you can see it here.
P-4 is from the third century, about AD 200-225, and is also not extant. It has a header, kind of, which you can see here.
P-75, again from the same early third century time period, so it is also not extant. It contains content from Luke's and John's Gospels which it demarcates with appropriate headers.

The point here, is that it is unlikely the original authors labeled their documents and then transmitted them. Once we get past the Apostolic Age and into the second century the early churches needed to identify these documents, so they began identifying them and adding the headers. The transmission point is that once the documents were being transmitted around following the Apostolic Age they received identification. There are plenty of good, scholarly works on these points.

 

[preachinjesus]

But Paul DID write these salutations, right?:

He authored them, yes, he probably had an amanuensis write them for him. But Paul is the author of the books of NT which are ascribed to him. My post didn't say anything about this.

PAUL wrote these, NOT someone else decades or centuries later, right?

The NT books were all written by the end of the first century. My post said nothing about this.

What does this mean? "Development of the NT books...from the early centuries". When I'm reading Pauline epistles I'm reading the writings of Paul, NOT someone else's "development" decades or centuries later, right? Or are you implying something else?

When we talk about the development of the NT books we are noting that these books are written by human authors and there is a process of moving them around to the early churches. The NT didn't drop out of the sky, this was a very human process. The books had to be written, edited, sent along via messenger, read aloud at an assembly, talked about, transmitted to other local churches, transmitted to more local churches, recognized as authoritative, copies collected and transmitted, discussion beginning to be had about canonization because of heretics like Marcion, more discussion, a loose list of NT books is assembled, then its debated, more heretics, a couple of false teachers, someone writes bad books and wants them included, more discussion about the NT books....this lasts for a while...and by the start of the fourth century a loose canon is virtually agreed upon by most churches in the known Christian world.

Paul's letters were seen by many as important and possibly inspired, but keep in mind, the "Bible" of the early churches was the Old Testament until about the middle point of second century when more copies of many books were available and being readily transmitted.

All this to say, the NT took time to develop. It wasn't an instantaneous process nor was it awfully quick. It took decades and generations and centuries to bring together in an final copy. I've never said anything else around here.

 

[kyredneck]

Thank you.

 

[TCassidy]

The transmission here was from the originals.

And you know how the originals read how?

It is unlikely that the originals contained headers or identifications such as "2 Corinthians" "Epistle to the Romans" "Gospel of Matthew" or "The Apocalypse." The texts were simply written and sent from the authors.

And you know this how?

As for your textual data:
P-66 is from approximately AD 195/200 so it isn't extant. It does indeed have a header and you can see it here.

If it isn't extant how do we know what it says?

P-4 is from the third century, about AD 200-225, and is also not extant. It has a header, kind of, which you can see here.

Same question. If it is not extant how do we know what it says?

P-75, again from the same early third century time period, so it is also not extant. It contains content from Luke's and John's Gospels which it demarcates with appropriate headers.

And once again. If it is not extant how do we know what it says?

The point here, is that it is unlikely the original authors labeled their documents and then transmitted them.

What do you base that opinion on?

Once we get past the Apostolic Age and into the second century the early churches needed to identify these documents, so they began identifying them and adding the headers.

And you know the same was not true of the autographs or apographs how?

The transmission point is that once the documents were being transmitted around following the Apostolic Age they received identification.

And you know this how?

There are plenty of good, scholarly works on these points.

Really. Could you gives us a few titles and authors. Thank you.