Total Depravity vs Free Will

[tyndale1946]

Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and to reject the rule of God. Even religion and (philanthropy) are wicked to God because they originate from a selfish human desire and are not done to the glory of God.

Therefore, in (Reformed theology), if God is to save anyone God must,(predestine) call, or elect individuals to salvation since fallen man does not want to, and is indeed incapable of, choosing God.

However, in Arminian theology (prevenient grace) (or "enabling grace") does reach through total depravity to enable people to respond to the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ.

If man according to the Calvinist view is unable by being Totally Depraved in his entire being, and the way I understand this doctrine, head to toe, body, mind, heart and soul, where is his free will to choose God?... Brother Glen

 

[InTheLight]

Didn't you answer your question when you said, "enabling grace reaches through total depravity to enable people to respond"?

Or is your assertion, "If man needs enabling grace from the Holy Spirit then that isn't free will."

 

[MennoSota]

Didn't you answer your question when you said, "enabling grace reaches through total depravity to enable people to respond"?

Or is your assertion, "If man needs enabling grace from the Holy Spirit then that isn't free will."

Enabling grace is an oxymoron. It cannot be grace that is being considered. It can only be "enabling works" as the option to grace and grace alone.

 

[InTheLight]

Enabling grace is an oxymoron. It cannot be grace that is being considered. It can only be "enabling works" as the option to grace and grace alone.

Don't get hung up on semantics. If the Holy Spirit is calling you and convicting you, that is grace. God is bestowing his favor on you so you can understand the gospel. He is drawing you.

 

[MennoSota]

Don't get hung up on semantics. If the Holy Spirit is calling you and convicting you, that is grace. God is bestowing his favor on you so you can understand the gospel. He is drawing you.

It's not semantics. If you add works to salvation you eliminate grace. By demanding free-will you demand salvation by works, which eliminates grace entirely.

 

[InTheLight]

It's not semantics. If you add works to salvation you eliminate grace. By demanding free-will you demand salvation by works, which eliminates grace entirely.

You're the one stuck on the phrase "free will". I've not used it.

How would you characterize the drawing of the Holy Spirit? The conviction of sin wrought by the Holy Spirit? The realization that you're a sinner and you deserve Hell?

Certainly not free will, not in my view.

 

[Yeshua1]

Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and to reject the rule of God. Even religion and (philanthropy) are wicked to God because they originate from a selfish human desire and are not done to the glory of God.

Therefore, in (Reformed theology), if God is to save anyone God must,(predestine) call, or elect individuals to salvation since fallen man does not want to, and is indeed incapable of, choosing God.

However, in Arminian theology (prevenient grace) (or "enabling grace") does reach through total depravity to enable people to respond to the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ.

If man according to the Calvinist view is unable by being Totally Depraved in his entire being, and the way I understand this doctrine, head to toe, body, mind, heart and soul, where is his free will to choose God?... Brother Glen

Interesting thing is that BOTH positions teach that NONE left to just themselves can freely choose God!

 

[Yeshua1]

It's not semantics. If you add works to salvation you eliminate grace. By demanding free-will you demand salvation by works, which eliminates grace entirely.

How can anyone a slave to sin as jesus stated we all are before he saves us be really free?

 

[tyndale1946]

How can anyone a slave to sin as jesus stated we all are before he saves us be really free?

That is why Issac Watts in his first stanza says... Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me... Just how Amazing is your Grace?... Brother Glen

 

[InTheLight]

That is why Issac Watts in his first stanza says... Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me... Just how Amazing is your Grace?... Brother Glen

I don't understand your question. I, myself, have no grace. Grace is entirely from God.

 

[2Dennings]

If man according to the Calvinist view is unable by being Totally Depraved in his entire being, and the way I understand this doctrine, head to toe, body, mind, heart and soul, where is his free will to choose God?

My thoughts on this, apart from the gospel there is no free will. The gospel reveals to us how God is reconciling us back to himself and shows us the way. The Holy Spirit does the work of convicting us and drawing us to Christ. God gives us the ability to freely choose to harden our hearts and resist, rejecting Christ, or, after The Holy Spirit beats us to a pulp, we have the free will to respond in obedience. We do this by obeying what the gospel commands of us, which is to believe. It is free will in the sense that now we can make choice that we didn't have before, a choice that was only made available by the grace of God. It is not free will in the sense that it is a choice that we presented to ourselves, or a choice that we would have desired to make. Even when we choose to believe the gospel and follow Christ, it is a choice that is made in defeat but one that leads to victory.

 

[TCassidy]

We do this by obeying what the gospel commands of us, which is to believe.

Only the regenerate heart can hear, believe, repent, and obey.

 

[anerlogios]

If man according to the Calvinist view is unable by being Totally Depraved in his entire being, and the way I understand this doctrine, head to toe, body, mind, heart and soul, where is his free will to choose God?... Brother Glen

Based on the definitions you gave, if total depravity teaches that the will is too wicked to choose God, than wouldn't the only way for you to choose God be for God to choose to change your will to one that will respond to him? And if so, isn't that what Reformed theology would call regeneration?

 

[Yeshua1]

Based on the definitions you gave, if total depravity teaches that the will is too wicked to choose God, than wouldn't the only way for you to choose God be for God to choose to change your will to one that will respond to him? And if so, isn't that what Reformed theology would call regeneration?

We love jesus, due to Him first loving us!

 

[TCassidy]

And if so, isn't that what Reformed theology would call regeneration?

Yes. And it is what the bible calls "Grace."

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes. And it is what the bible calls "Grace."

God loves his own, but saves his own by Grace!

 

[Samuels]

If man according to the Calvinist view is unable by being Totally Depraved in his entire being,
and the way I understand this doctrine, head to toe, body, mind, heart and soul,
where is his free will to choose God?

Yes, with many aspects of the Bible's spiritual Truth, things are NOT a simple black and white proposition.
Man is NOT free to choose to believe without God intervening and giving a seed of faith.
But, after that ... man has his free will back again!

IOW, man is allowed to use his free-will in most things, but NOT in choosing salvation.
Exception ... IMO, God will usually intervene if a believer tries to commit suicide
(if God is not ready for him to die yet).
Consider that those who will inherit eternal life have one or more guardian angels
to protect them until their time is up!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, with many aspects of the Bible's spiritual Truth, things are NOT a simple black and white proposition.
Man is NOT free to choose to believe without God intervening and giving a seed of faith.
But, after that ... man has his free will back again!
IOW, man is allowed to use his free-will in most things, but NOT in choosing salvation.
Exception ... IMO, God will usually intervene if a believer tries to commit suicide.

The new nature will not turn away from the lord, as we are born again of imperishable seed, correct?

 

[Christine Baker]

Omg! With the above statements alongside the original question, how can it be that anyone could have 'assurance' of salvation? Sounds like all the answers given are derived from a study of the bible rather than from experiential knowledge of God.

For myself, the awakening to God came via observance and deduction of ordinary, everyday existence, alongside inexplicable events which led me to question so called 'reality'. I concluded that there was obviously more to life than met the eye, simply by being unable to explain certain events, i.e., how could I possibly have known the whereabouts of certain lost items and also the same for knowing an as yet undeclared outcome, such as a winning raffle ticket number? Such things led me to consider the existence of a greater power. I was also of the formed opinion that to love was of greater value than to despise. I became convinced that this 'greater power' was Love, in the sense of Personality. I had no particular 'religious' inclination at all and indeed surmised that all organised religion was indeed just that and had no real depth of truth but was merely a man made effort towards spirituality. In other words, just as mis-informed as total ignorance toward religion. Although I had studied various religions, including attempting to apply myself to dogma of said varied religions, I personally found such routes and methods to be vain in regard to obtaining 'God'. Indeed, it was not until I pushed aside my varied study manuals in frustration and, spreading my hands before me, I confessed that I knew not which (if any) religion was 'true' and yet I suspected that God IS and as such asked simply that if He IS to reveal Himself to me. And this He did. Approximately 2 weeks after abandoning my studies and all self imposed religious 'formality', I received a vision. In it I was taken into the light which was obviously God though no Names were mentioned - not Jesus nor any other. However, in viewing from this heavenly persperspective a scene of many people's all dressed in monks habits with the cowls up, all walking about with not one taking any notice of another (each being consumed by their own inward thoughts) I heard these words spoken, "They do not understand; the only important thing is that they love one another." My immediate reaction was to very enthusiastically say, "I'LL TELL THEM!!!" And, understanding the necessity of leaving this 'place' in order to 'tell' others (and, I believe, being given the choice of going or staying) I found myself back on my sofa! That was 30 years ago. I've also been shown the dense darkness. Hideous place with neither life nor love. So, did my 'immersion' in God come from my inclination to seek Him, or was it God (Holy Spirit) who caused my inclination in the first place? Either way, I believe in God and have an intellectual understanding of the necessity of Christ. I believe that the relationship I have is made possible by the effectual working of Christ. I believe I am saved by God for all eternity simply because He is. I also believe that to attempt to achieve oneness with God by religious adherence, church attendance, denominational belief, etc, etc, is a lie against the truth. So Armenianism or Calvinism? Neither. God Himself. Seek Him! Not someone else's opinion on the subject.

 

[utilyan]

Only the regenerate heart can hear, believe, repent, and obey.

Can't RE-Generate something that was never there.

That's like someone cutting out a piece of glass handing it to you and saying REPAIR my television.

Regenerate implies a original perfect condition.

Why not use a term you mean like GENERATE? Only the heart generated by God can hear, believe, repent and obey.



The "RE" in REgenerate is there for a reason.