Total Depravity vs Free Will

[Martin Andrews]

As I said I do not claim to be a calvinist, I have however never come across that statement that he taught a universal atonement. Can you document that Martin?

Thanks
HankD

John Calvin - Jesus Died For the Whole Human Race

 

[MennoSota]

Notice how "the things" becomes "all the things" despite the context teaching spiritual meat and not spiritual milk is in view. The natural man cannot know spiritual meat because he/she has no indwelt holy spirit, as their helper. OTOH, 1 Corinthians 3:1, Paul speaks to those who have not matured as to "men of flesh." Therefore "men of flesh" can understand spiritual milk.

How does a dead man know? (Ephesians 2:1)

 

[Van]

Still pushing this falsehood I see.
Typing it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again does not make it any less false.

Notice this "taint so" post simply denies Paul spoke to immature Christians as to "men of flesh!" 1 Corinthians 3:1

 

[TCassidy]

Therefore "men of flesh" can understand spiritual milk.

Yes, born again people, with the indwelling Spirit of God, but walking in the flesh, can understand spiritual things. Just like it says. Your vacuous "exegesis" has no basis in fact.

 

[Van]

How does a dead man know? (Ephesians 2:1)

Your fake theology that "dead" (spiritually) equates with "total spiritual inability" is utter refuted by Matthew 23:13. You can continue to ask questions, and change the subject till the cows come home, but scripture teaches those who are dead in sin have limited spiritual ability.

 

[Van]

Yes, born again people, with the indwelling Spirit of God, but walking in the flesh, can understand spiritual things. Just like it says. Your vacuous "exegesis" has no basis in fact.

More denial. Paul spoke to them as to men of flesh. Thus men of flesh can understand spiritual milk.

 

[TCassidy]

Paul spoke to them as to men of flesh.

Yes, carnal CHRISTIANS, indwelt by the Holy Spirit Who is the discerner of all such things. Paul could not be more clear. Carnal CHRISTIANS.

 

[TCassidy]

Question: If regeneration occurs first, and faith occurs immediately afterward, how do we explain people who have the Word of God preached to them, they obviously experience conviction and a drawing of the Spirit, but they resist, sometimes for years, before conversion?

Yes, this happens, but what is your question? Is it why do they resist? I don't understand what you are asking.

Question: What about verses like John 20:31 that says "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." It sounds like in this verse that belief comes first, in order to have life.

Yes, belief is how we have life through His name. But who can believe? The enemy of God? Or those to whom God has given his Grace?

Question: How do some Calvinists have the nerve to call people reprobates when they have no idea who the elect are? They have no idea when regeneration will occur in someone. At one time they were also unbelievers, but not reprobate. Are these the hyper-Calvinists?

You would have to ask "some Calvinists." We can't know who is elect and who is not. We are commanded to preach the gospel to everyone. God will know His own.

Question: If Adam was spiritually living and had free will, then why, when we are made alive spiritually do we not have that same free will?

Because after we are saved we are bound to the Law of New Life in Christ.

 

[MennoSota]

Your fake theology that "dead" (spiritually) equates with "total spiritual inability" is utter refuted by Matthew 23:13. You can continue to ask questions, and change the subject till the cows come home, but scripture teaches those who are dead in sin have limited spiritual ability.

Does that mean you reject Ephesians 2:4-5 where we are told that God made us alive in Christ Jesus?

 

[MennoSota]

Your fake theology that "dead" (spiritually) equates with "total spiritual inability" is utter refuted by Matthew 23:13. You can continue to ask questions, and change the subject till the cows come home, but scripture teaches those who are dead in sin have limited spiritual ability.

Matthew 23:13

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either."

Please expound on the utter refutation you speak of.

 

[2Dennings]

Yes, this happens, but what is your question? Is it why do they resist? I don't understand what you are asking.

My question was why do we see that some people see and understand but do not experience conversion immediately? You have said that we must be regenerated before we can see or understand anything spiritual. You have also said that faith occurs immediately after, if not somewhat simultaneously, with regeneration. But here you just agreed that some people see and understand but resist. If they see and understand, then according to you, they have been regenerated or born again. If they resist until some later date then they are born again but have no faith. I believe that faith alone justifies and you are only born again as a result of that justification. As Paul says in Gal 2:16 "yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

Yes, belief is how we have life through His name. But who can believe? The enemy of God? Or those to whom God has given his Grace?

You keep saying we must be made alive in order to be able to believe, but this verse shows we have life by believing. So I guess this means we have to be made alive in order to believe in order to have life.

Who can believe? Who does God give this grace? Let's look at Romans 10:12-15, but let's look at it backwards, starting in 15. We must send people to preach so others can hear, in order for them be believe, so that they may call on him, in order to be saved. For everyone who calls on him will be saved, and those who call on him will receive his riches, whether they be Jew or Gentile.

You would have to ask "some Calvinists."

I did, you did not have to respond to this if that is not you. I know "all Calvinists" do not agree on everything, so my question was to "some Calvinist".

 

[2Dennings]

Shame on you for making such a stupid statement. Tonight my home church hosted our monthly sing with the other churches in our Missionary Baptist association, and these churches are NOT Calvinistic. But during service, I got up and sang two songs. Before I sang, I had the church pray with me for my lost wife's salvation, and all the other lost ppl in our community. I was trying to hold back my tears as I was speaking to God through prayer. I told them I would even trade places with her and suffer in hell if I could. But I know that I can not do that. But to say we don't want everyone to be saved is a flat-out lie!!!!!

I do not know you or your wife but I will pray for her and you both. I believe that God does work through prayer and I have seen people turn to God after many years of people praying for them. At the same time this is where I don't understand Calvinism. You can't pray someone into the elect, they either are or aren't. I had a Calvinist tell me once that the number is set and cannot be changed. When asked about his own children he said all he could do was pray for them and that prayer can move the hand of God. Sounds like he does not believe his own theology when it comes to his family. I pray for people because I do believe it can make a difference. If you want to you can send me your names and I will add you to our prayer list at church. We can pray for you anyway but I just feel it is more powerful when it is by name.

 

[MennoSota]

You keep saying we must be made alive in order to be able to believe, but this verse shows we have life by believing. So I guess this means we have to be made alive in order to believe in order to have life.

Who can believe? Who does God give this grace?

Your answer is found in Ephesians 1 and 2.

Ephesians 2:1-10 answers your first question regarding who is made alive.
Ephesians 2:1-10
[1]Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.
[2]You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.
[3]All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.
[4]But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much,
[5]that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)
[6]For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.
[7]So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.
[8]God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
[9]Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
[10]For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

Ephesians 1:4,5 answers the question regarding to whom God displays grace.
Ephesians 1:4-5
[4]Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.
[5]God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.

 

[Van]

Does that mean you reject Ephesians 2:4-5 where we are told that God made us alive in Christ Jesus?

Yet another change of subject question. We were "dead" in sin, separated from God, and God made us alive united with God. Note that the claim (dead means total spiritual inability) is not even addressed by the change the subject verse.

 

[MennoSota]

Yet another change of subject question. We were "dead" in sin, separated from God, and God made us alive united with God. Note that the claim (dead means total spiritual inability) is not even addressed by the change the subject verse.

Ephesians 2:1-10
[1]Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.
[2]You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.
[3]All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.
[4]But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much,
[5]that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)
[6]For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.
[7]So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.
[8]God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
[9]Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
[10]For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

 

[Van]

Matthew 23:13

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either."

Please expound on the utter refutation you speak of.

The men of flesh were in the process of entering the kingdom of God. They could not have been doing that unless they had some spiritual ability. Thus Matthew 23:13 demonstrates "total spiritual inability" is fake doctrine.

 

[FollowTheWay]

It largely depends on what kind of Baptist is in view in regards to the differences between them and Methodists and Presbyterians. As far as man being "basically good and morally unaffected by the Fall," I would have to address that from two perspectives. The first, we understand that man was created in the image and likeness of God, and in some respects we retain that distinction in Creation, however, Scripture makes it clear explicitly and implicitly that man will, despite his best efforts...fall short.

The reason is that the relationship man (Adam) had with God when he was created was lost, and because of our separation from God we have no recourse but to sin. Now while, again, I would agree that man has the capacity for good (on a human and earthly level), the sad fact is that nothing he does, no amount of righteousness he achieves...restores relationship with GOd that he might be restored to relationship with God.

Only through Christ's death in our place do we have the means of the penalty of the inevitable sin we will commit being paid, through which we are restored to relationship with God.

So I view Total Depravity as a valid Doctrine.


God bless.

I agree. I also agree with another TULIP doctrine, perseverance of the saints. People ask how you can have assurance of your salvation. This doctrine says that all those who are saved will persevere until the end.

 

[MennoSota]

The men of flesh were in the process of entering the kingdom of God. They could not have been doing that unless they had some spiritual ability. Thus Matthew 23:13 demonstrates "total spiritual inability" is fake doctrine.

Your interpretation of the verse is really bad. Try again.

 

[Van]

Ephesians 2:1-10
[1]Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.
[2]You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.
[3]All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.
[4]But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much,
[5]that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)
[6]For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.
[7]So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.
[8]God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
[9]Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
[10]For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

Yet another long post that does not even address the issue.

 

[Van]

Your interpretation of the verse is really bad. Try again.

Yet another "taint so" post devoid of content.

To repeat, The men of flesh were in the process of entering the kingdom of God. They could not have been doing that unless they had some spiritual ability. Thus Matthew 23:13 demonstrates "total spiritual inability" is fake doctrine.