John Bunyan on the Sovereign Choice of God

[Martin Marprelate]

John 6:44 makes it very clear that God must draw a person to Him and Jesus makes it very clear in John 12:32 who that is: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Yet all men are not drawn, are they? Many remain stubbornly apathetic or hostile. You have to qualify the "all" somehow, so you will make it mean "all who believe." That is true, except that men are drawn first and believe afterwards as God opens their hearts (Acts 16:14).

I believe that the "all" in John 6:44 means "all manner of people"- male and female, rich and poor, slave and free, Jew and Gentile and so forth (cf. Galatians 3:28). Take a verse like Philippians 4:13. 'I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.' What does the "all" mean there? Does it mean every single thing in the world? Can Paul do brain surgery or walk on the ceiling? Of course not! It means that through Christ, Paul can do all manner of things: specifically, to be abased and to abound; to be full and to be hungry; to abound and to suffer need (v.12); in fact, all the things God requires him to do..

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course it is LOL!

Just like if I believed in post mill doctrine...I can *make* scripture fit that framework if I contort the text

Calvinists just took what the scriptures stated concerning Sotierology, and did not try to see free will in there as a requirement in order to allow God to save us!

 

[Yeshua1]

No more than Pelagian's or Semi-pelagian's. When it comes to reconciliation Calvinists are much better at scriptural honesty. When it comes to prophecy, covenant theology creates some allegories that are head scratching.

Do you hold to Calvinism as regards to Sotierology, but more Baptist as regarding other things, such as Eschatology?

 

[JonShaff]

Calvinists just took what the scriptures stated concerning Sotierology, and did not try to see free will in there as a requirement in order to allow God to save us!

I do not believe that if one simply read the Bible with *zero* presuppositions that calvinism would be what they concluded is true. Calvinism has to be taught.

 

[MennoSota]

Where does "drawing" equate to "justification"?

John 6:37?

Is coming to Jesus the same as being drawn to Jesus? In TULIP, maybe, but what do the Scriptures say?

Indeed, what do the scriptures say?
How can someone come unless they hear? How can a dead man hear? What must first take place in order for a dead man to hear God's voice and walk forth to Jesus?
What do the scriptures say?

 

[JonShaff]

Indeed, what do the scriptures say?
How can someone come unless they hear? How can a dead man hear? What must first take place in order for a dead man to hear God's voice and walk forth to Jesus?
What do the scriptures say?

This "how can a dead man hear" thought is unbiblical...How can a dead man sin? See how illogical that is?

 

[MennoSota]

Do you hold to Calvinism as regards to Sotierology, but more Baptist as regarding other things, such as Eschatology?

Regarding salvation, I agree with reformed teaching. Regarding prophesy, I look for the plain sense first before considering allegories. I have read far too many allegorical interpretations that defy logic and sound like pet agendas rather than sound interpretation of the passage.

 

[utilyan]

Utilyan you sure do a poor job with understanding 1 John. You are, simply put, wrong in your interpretation.

Well of course its poor. So lay out its proper interpretation as you see fit.

Saying "hey your stupid" Doesn't quite point out the flaws of your content.

I bet you never understood 1 John without "help"

Because there is no way anyone reading it for the first time would think it mean anything else other then what it states plainly.


1 john 5
10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
The testimony is God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his son

So do you believe God has given ME eternal life?

If you say yes, great. If you say no or you don't know, then you make God a liar because you don't believe the testimony God has given about his son.


But if you say well the test here doesn't involve another person's stance just my personal status then "God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." applies to everyone.



This is why a LIAR is a LIAR.

Because if he rejects the notion that God has given him eternal life, and eternal life was never offered to him, then he would be telling the TRUTH.

 

[MennoSota]

I do not believe that if one simply read the Bible with *zero* presuppositions that calvinism would be what they concluded is true. Calvinism has to be taught.

No it doesn't. I started out as a semi-pelagian edging very close to Arminian because it was what I learned as a child in the church. I started reading the Bible and observing passage after passage within the context of the writing. As I read I began to grasp God's sovereign hand on my life in all areas including my own salvation. It's right there in the Bible, in front of my eyes. I just had to read without putting on the rose colored glasses my church told me to wear. I went from being enslaved to fear of God's possible retribution for my lifestyle failures to joyful acceptance of God's amazing grace. It was similar to Martin Luther being freed from the false teachings and chains he had from the Roman church in which he was raised.
Jon, your comment is entirely false.

 

[MennoSota]

Well of course its poor. So lay out its proper interpretation as you see fit.

Saying "hey your stupid" Doesn't quite point out the flaws of your content.

I bet you never understood 1 John without "help"

Because there is no way anyone reading it for the first time would think it mean anything else other then what it states plainly.


1 john 5
10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
The testimony is God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his son

So do you believe God has given ME eternal life?

If you say yes, great. If you say no or you don't know, then you make God a liar because you don't believe the testimony God has given about his son.


But if you say well the test here doesn't involve another person's stance just my personal status then "God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." applies to everyone.



This is why a LIAR is a LIAR.

Because if he rejects the notion that God has given him eternal life, and eternal life was never offered to him, then he would be telling the TRUTH.

Try again.

 

[JonShaff]

No it doesn't. I started out as a semi-pelagian edging very close to Arminian because it was what I learned as a child in the church. I started reading the Bible and observing passage after passage within the context of the writing. As I read I began to grasp God's sovereign hand on my life in all areas including my own salvation. It's right there in the Bible, in front of my eyes. I just had to read without putting on the rose colored glasses my church told me to wear. I went from being enslaved to fear of God's possible retribution for my lifestyle failures to joyful acceptance of God's amazing grace. It was similar to Martin Luther being freed from the false teachings and chains he had from the Roman church in which he was raised.
Jon, your comment is entirely false.

First of all, you were "Raised up" in church, therefore you still had presuppositions. Secondly, concerning your experience of God's amazing grace, i have/still do experience all that you speak of without adopting your view of Sotierology therefore experience cannot justify theological accuracy. And just because Luther experienced a "setting free from false teaching" does not mean he promoted the best practices/doctrinal stances himself.

Lastly, which part of my comment was "entirely false"? The section where i said, "I do not believe...." are you saying i'm lying to myself? not sure what you mean there brother...

 

[MennoSota]

First of all, you were "Raised up" in church, therefore you still had presuppositions. Secondly, concerning your experience of God's amazing grace, i have/still do experience all that you speak of without adopting your view of Sotierology therefore experience cannot justify theological accuracy. And just because Luther experienced a "setting free from false teaching" does not mean he promoted the best practices/doctrinal stances himself.

Every human is taught and provided a worldview from adults and mentors who care for them. It does not matter who you look at. You were taught a worldview as you grew. You adopted that worldview. The question is whether you have been objective in considering the accuracy of that worldview or whether you have merely modified it to fit your preconceptions.
For me, as I read God's word I had a paradigm shift toward fully accepting God's sovereignty over all areas of my life, including my own salvation. The scriptures simply cracked me across the head and spoke very clearly to me. It wasn't until later that I actually heard of Calvin as a commentator in whom I noticed common understanding of God's sovereignty. I also found commonality in Luther writing and...John Bunyan. Pilgrim's Progress is a blessed writing and has been read only second to the Bible within Christianity. If you have not read it, I suggest you get a copy.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I do not believe that if one simply read the Bible with *zero* presuppositions that calvinism would be what they concluded is true. Calvinism has to be taught.

That is your presupposition because of what you have been taught. Have you read Spurgeon's account of how he became a Calvinist? I'm sure I can dig it out for you.

This "how can a dead man hear" thought is unbiblical...How can a dead man sin? See how illogical that is?

Ephesians 2:1, 4-5. 'And you He made alive who were dead in trespasses and sins.............But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (By grace you have been saved).'

 

[Yeshua1]

Regarding salvation, I agree with reformed teaching. Regarding prophesy, I look for the plain sense first before considering allegories. I have read far too many allegorical interpretations that defy logic and sound like pet agendas rather than sound interpretation of the passage.

So wewould seem to be like minded , as I hold to similar viewpoints!

 

[Yeshua1]

That is your presupposition because of what you have been taught. Have you read Spurgeon's account of how he became a Calvinist? I'm sure I can dig it out for you.


Ephesians 2:1, 4-5. 'And you He made alive who were dead in trespasses and sins.............But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (By grace you have been saved).'

Think that a big reason why some revolt against Calvinism would be that its theolgy really centers salvation as being God centered, and even us saved folks have a part of stubborn pride in us that wants to claim some of the credit!

 

[saved and sure]

Does that verse mean that Jesus will save all men? Is it a universal promise that all will be saved?

My goodness, you are something else. Jesus draws all men to himself does not mean they will respond. God also says that His will is that all men come to repentance. But it's up to them to respond. God's Will is that all men obey but that isnt the case is it? God gave us a free will and He offers each person the opportunity to accept Him or reject Him. That is final based on the scripture I started with. John 3:16.

 

[Yeshua1]

My goodness, you are something else. Jesus draws all men to himself does not mean they will respond. God also says that His will is that all men come to repentance. But it's up to them to respond. God's Will is that all men obey but that isnt the case is it? God gave us a free will and He offers each person the opportunity to accept Him or reject Him. That is final based on the scripture I started with. John 3:16.

Again, how can the fallen sin nature that is at war with God freely decide to surrender?

 

[MennoSota]

My goodness, you are something else. Jesus draws all men to himself does not mean they will respond. God also says that His will is that all men come to repentance. But it's up to them to respond. God's Will is that all men obey but that isnt the case is it? God gave us a free will and He offers each person the opportunity to accept Him or reject Him. That is final based on the scripture I started with. John 3:16.

Where does Jesus say "but it's up to them to respond?"

If God wills all men to repentance, but all men don't repent, does this mean God failed to execute his own will?

Do you see the conundrum you create by demanding that the word "all" is universal?

 

[Yeshua1]

Where does Jesus say "but it's up to them to respond?"

If God wills all men to repentance, but all men don't repent, does this mean God failed to execute his own will?

Do you see the conundrum you create by demanding that the word "all" is universal?

If it is the Will of God that none perish, than something has overpowered Him!

 

[JonShaff]

That is your presupposition because of what you have been taught. Have you read Spurgeon's account of how he became a Calvinist? I'm sure I can dig it out for you.


Ephesians 2:1, 4-5. 'And you He made alive who were dead in trespasses and sins.............But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (By grace you have been saved).'

Right...so if a dead man cannot "hear" how can a dead man sin? You're own premise is illogical, that is what i'm pointing out.