John Bunyan on the Sovereign Choice of God

[JonShaff]

Every human is taught and provided a worldview from adults and mentors who care for them. It does not matter who you look at. You were taught a worldview as you grew. You adopted that worldview. The question is whether you have been objective in considering the accuracy of that worldview or whether you have merely modified it to fit your preconceptions.
For me, as I read God's word I had a paradigm shift toward fully accepting God's sovereignty over all areas of my life, including my own salvation. The scriptures simply cracked me across the head and spoke very clearly to me. It wasn't until later that I actually heard of Calvin as a commentator in whom I noticed common understanding of God's sovereignty. I also found commonality in Luther writing and...John Bunyan. Pilgrim's Progress is a blessed writing and has been read only second to the Bible within Christianity. If you have not read it, I suggest you get a copy.

I agree with everything you have written here...and yes, i would like to read it...i will make an effort to do so!

 

[JonShaff]

Think that a big reason why some revolt against Calvinism would be that its theolgy really centers salvation as being God centered, and even us saved folks have a part of stubborn pride in us that wants to claim some of the credit!

i believe salvation is all of God, it IS God's...His Word says it. "Salvation is the Lord's". But i'm not reformed in my soteriology

 

[Yeshua1]

i believe salvation is all of God, it IS God's...His Word says it. "Salvation is the Lord's". But i'm not reformed in my soteriology

Just curious, why not?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Right...so if a dead man cannot "hear" how can a dead man sin? Your own premise is illogical, that is what I'm pointing out.

It's not my premise, it's God's. That what I'm pointing out. You are accusing the Holy Spirit of illogicality, not me.
Please read Jeremiah 12:23 before replying.

 

[JonShaff]

It's not my premise, it's God's. That what I'm pointing out. You are accusing the Holy Spirit of illogicality, not me.
Please read Jeremiah 12:23 before replying.

Whoa, whoa, whoa brother. I'm not accusing the Holy Spirit of being illogical. That is quite the charge. You said, "Dead men can't hear," and i said, "Dead men can't sin." Your Physical analogy of a Spiritual Truth is illogical because it is. The Holy Spirit did not make up that analogy, you did.

 

[JonShaff]

Just curious, why not?

Because i do not see the Biblical evidence that regeneration precedes faith.

 

[Yeshua1]

Because i do not see the Biblical evidence that regeneration precedes faith.

Regen causes the faith, not other way around!

 

[JonShaff]

Regen causes the faith, not other way around!

LoL ok

 

[Yeshua1]

Think that is how God orders it, but from our point of view, really appears to happen at same time!

 

[MennoSota]

Because i do not see the Biblical evidence that regeneration precedes faith.

Here's your biblical evidence. Notice the progression.

Romans 8:29-30
[29]For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
[30]And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Whoa, whoa, whoa brother. I'm not accusing the Holy Spirit of being illogical. That is quite the charge. You said, "Dead men can't hear," and i said, "Dead men can't sin." Your Physical analogy of a Spiritual Truth is illogical because it is. The Holy Spirit did not make up that analogy, you did.

My friend, I cited Ephesians 2 which twice claims that people are not just dead, but dead in trespasses and sins. They are not physically dead, but spiritually dead; alive to sin but dead towards God and righteousness. Jer. 4:22. 'They are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.' Jer. 13:23. 'Can the Ethiopean change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.' Titus 3:3-7. 'For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another [that's what Paul and Titus were, and it's what dead in trespasses and sins means]. But when the kindness and the love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our saviour, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.'

'Washing......and renewing.' That's what our Lord meant by 'born of water and the Spirit' (John 3:5). It's the new birth whereby spiritually dead people receive new life, and it's all of God and none of us (Ephesians 2:4-5; 1 Peter 1:3-5).

Lord, I was blind! I could not see
In Thy marred visage any grace;
But now the beauty of Thy face
In radiant visions dawns on me.

Lord, I was deaf! I could not hear
The thrilling music of Thy voice;
,But now I hear Thee and rejoice,
And all Thine uttered words are dear.

Lord, I was dumb! I could not speak
The grace and glory of Thy name;
But now, as touched by living flame,
My lips Thine eager praises wake.

Lord, I was dead! I could not stir
My lifeless soul to come to Thee;
But now, since Thou hast quickened me,
I rise from sin's dark sepulchre.

Lord, Thou hast made the blind to see;
The deaf to hear, the dumb to speak,
The dead to live; and lo! I break
The bonds of my captivity.
[William Tidd Matson, 1833-1899]

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Because i do not see the Biblical evidence that regeneration precedes faith.

Acts 16:14. 'Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us.........The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.'
Did Lydia open her own heart to heed the things spoken by Paul? Nope!
Did Paul's wonderful preaching open her heart? Nope!
It was God, and He alone, who opened her heart, taking away her heart of stone and giving her one of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26) that could respond to Paul's preaching.

 

[JonShaff]

Acts 16:14. 'Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us.........The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.'
Did Lydia open her own heart to heed the things spoken by Paul? Nope!
Did Paul's wonderful preaching open her heart? Nope!
It was God, and He alone, who opened her heart, taking away her heart of stone and giving her one of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26) that could respond to Paul's preaching.

Not great hermeneutic my friend. You're the one MAKING that connection in Ezekiel.
Genesis 3:9-10 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

God opening her heart is justification?


Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[MennoSota]

Not great hermeneutic my friend. You're the one MAKING that connection in Ezekiel.
Genesis 3:9-10 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Hmmm....Genesis 3:9-10 is a passage about salvation? Are you sure that's accurate or do you wish to rethink it?

 

[JonShaff]

My friend, I cited Ephesians 2 which twice claims that people are not just dead, but dead in trespasses and sins. They are not physically dead, but spiritually dead; alive to sin but dead towards God and righteousness. Jer. 4:22. 'They are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.' Jer. 13:23. 'Can the Ethiopean change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.' Titus 3:3-7. 'For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another [that's what Paul and Titus were, and it's what dead in trespasses and sins means]. But when the kindness and the love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our saviour, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.'

'Washing......and renewing.' That's what our Lord meant by 'born of water and the Spirit' (John 3:5). It's the new birth whereby spiritually dead people receive new life, and it's all of God and none of us (Ephesians 2:4-5; 1 Peter 1:3-5).

Lord, I was blind! I could not see
In Thy marred visage any grace;
But now the beauty of Thy face
In radiant visions dawns on me.

Lord, I was deaf! I could not hear
The thrilling music of Thy voice;
,But now I hear Thee and rejoice,
And all Thine uttered words are dear.

Lord, I was dumb! I could not speak
The grace and glory of Thy name;
But now, as touched by living flame,
My lips Thine eager praises wake.

Lord, I was dead! I could not stir
My lifeless soul to come to Thee;
But now, since Thou hast quickened me,
I rise from sin's dark sepulchre.

Lord, Thou hast made the blind to see;
The deaf to hear, the dumb to speak,
The dead to live; and lo! I break
The bonds of my captivity.
[William Tidd Matson, 1833-1899]

I should have been quoting @MennoSota sota

He said "dead people can't hear"

 

[JonShaff]

Hmmm....Genesis 3:9-10 is a passage about salvation? Are you sure that's accurate or do you wish to rethink it?

It was a dead man "hearing God"
Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

 

[utilyan]

Think that a big reason why some revolt against Calvinism would be that its theolgy really centers salvation as being God centered, and even us saved folks have a part of stubborn pride in us that wants to claim some of the credit!

How about quote one who gives themselves credit. This is just a straw man argument.


Nothing wrong with giving God all credit. What is wrong is limiting God to being so stupid that he can't win a game of checkers without moving all the pieces for you.



God can DO ANYTHING, but he can't give anything free will.


Why do you think God is so DUMB and POWERLESS? and then your upset with us because we don't agree God is an idiot.


If we accept the God of Calvinism, we would be sinning. Because we would have to accept an God is an idiot.


Look Calvinist God is so furious that all the wrath towards you is Jesus directed instead. God is just chimp-furious as to why all the sinning he planned to happened.....happened and takes it out on Jesus.

Again even a volcano god where you throw folks in a volcano isn't so stupid.

Convince me God is an idiot and I will be Calvinist instantly.

 

[MennoSota]

Here's your biblical evidence. Notice the progression.

Romans 8:29-30
[29]For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
[30]And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

Bump for you Jon.

As to your butchering of Genesis 3, I can only shake my head.

 

[MennoSota]

How about quote one who gives themselves credit. This is just a straw man argument.


Nothing wrong with giving God all credit. What is wrong is limiting God to being so stupid that he can't win a game of checkers without moving all the pieces for you.



God can DO ANYTHING, but he can't give anything free will.


Why do you think God is so DUMB and POWERLESS? and then your upset with us because we don't agree God is an idiot.


If we accept the God of Calvinism, we would be sinning. Because we would have to accept an God is an idiot.


Look Calvinist God is so furious that all the wrath towards you is Jesus directed instead. God is just chimp-furious as to why all the sinning he planned to happened.....happened and takes it out on Jesus.

Again even a volcano god where you throw folks in a volcano isn't so stupid.

Convince me God is an idiot and I will be Calvinist instantly.

Your whole argument is senseless, utilyan.

 

[JonShaff]

Bump for you Jon.

As to your butchering of Genesis 3, I can only shake my head.

I would say that too if I had nothing to say about a spiritually Dead Adam who *hears the Word of God.

Hey, I'm always trying to humble myself In order to learn the truth. If you really want to help me learn your position, start a private message with me