John Bunyan on the Sovereign Choice of God

[JonShaff]

The only thing we have been talking about is God's work in causing those who are dead to be made alive. If you agree, why have you wasted everyone's time arguing against what you now say you agree with. Do you often flip flop like this?

You are super manipulative.

 

[MennoSota]

You are super manipulative.

Just be honest instead of speaking falsehood only to tell me you were kidding. Such behavior is dissapointing from you. Why do you speak with forked tongue?

Your behavior is like atheists I talk with.

 

[JonShaff]

Just be honest instead of speaking falsehood only to tell me you were kidding. Such behavior is dissapointing from you. Why do you speak with forked tongue?

Your behavior is like atheists I talk with.

What are you talking about?

I believe what Paul Says about

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

However, I do not believe what Calvin says about it.

 

[InTheLight]

OK you win.

That's a sensible move. Best thing to do is to bow out. Calvinists will never relent. They gang up on the non-Cal's. They want us to assimilate.

They're smarter than we are. Whereas we are blind, poorly educated, and unable to understand God's word they have special insight into God's word. They have various confessions like the Westminster Confession of Faith and the London Confession of Faith, various commentaries and superstar personalities like John Piper, John MacArthur, and James White. All we have is the Holy Spirit, the Bible, and common sense.

 

[HankD]

The only thing we have been talking about is God's work in causing those who are dead to be made alive. If you agree, why have you wasted everyone's time arguing against what you now say you agree with. Do you often flip flop like this?

Menno bro, your own communication skills could use a little work.

My opinion of course.

HankD

 

[JonShaff]

I will remind everyone how @MennoSota was first addressed about what he has been nagging me with for 2 days...

Dead men can hear the voice of God

So @MennoSota, I'm not going to ask you a manipulative question about your humility and ask you to apologize. I'm just going to tell you I love you.

 

[MennoSota]

Menno bro, your own communication skills could use a little work.

My opinion of course.

HankD

Not trying to win a popularity contest, Hank.
People need to be honest and not manipulative, especially when we address God's word.
A person doesn't know what they don't know, which is fine. But a person who doesn't know what they don't know, but imagines they do is not fine. Those who purposely obfuscate are wrong and should not be tolerated.

 

[JonShaff]

Not trying to win a popularity contest, Hank.
People need to be honest and not manipulative, especially when we address God's word.
A person doesn't know what they don't know, which is fine. But a person who doesn't know what they don't know, but imagines they do is not fine. Those who purposely obfuscate are wrong and should not be tolerated.

We are spiritually dead in our trespasses in sins. Spiritually dead people are enemies of God. Spiritually dead people cannot please God. Spiritually dead people are slaves to sin. Spiritually dead people who die in their spiritually dead condition live eternally separated from God. Spiritually dead people, however, can hear the voice of God and do not need to become "Spiritually alive" before they hear God. PERIOD

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 3 AM Pacific.

 

[JonShaff]

I would say that too if I had nothing to say about a spiritually Dead Adam who *hears the Word of God.

Hey, I'm always trying to humble myself In order to learn the truth. If you really want to help me learn your position, start a private message with me

Another bump for @MennoSota
Who never answered my PM, BTW

 

[MennoSota]

Spiritually dead people, however, can hear the voice of God and do not need to become "Spiritually alive" before they hear God. PERIOD

Except the Bible does not teach that...PERIOD.
You are working hard to rationalize your concept with the Bible and you reject God's word because it doesn't make sense to you. You just need to accept what God says...even if you cannot reconcile your personal opinions. Stop trying to make God's word fit your paradigm.

 

[JonShaff]

Except the Bible does not teach that...PERIOD.
You are working hard to rationalize your concept with the Bible and you reject God's word because it doesn't make sense to you. You just need to accept what God says...even if you cannot reconcile your personal opinions. Stop trying to make God's word fit your paradigm.

Let me make this very plain to you and to all who read this. If calvinism produces Christians like you then I don't want your theology. If a theology produces ungodly Character then do I really need to debate it? The Pharisees knew the Scriptures, quoted the Scriptures, bound them to their head and heart (literally). But did not let the Scriptures Get into their Heart. They Had no Love for God nor any love for Others. They were fruitless. And let me tell you something about internet chatting. You may say to yourself, "I'm not really this arrogant in real life or manipulative or condescending," but hear me very clear. Your posts reveal your heart and your heart lacks any love. If you cannot love those whom you can see, how can you love a God whom you can't see?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Let me make this very plain to you and to all who read this. If calvinism produces Christians like you then I don't want your theology. If a theology produces ungodly Character then do I really need to debate it? The Pharisees knew the Scriptures, quoted the Scriptures, bound them to their head and heart (literally). But did not let the Scriptures Get into their Heart. They Had no Love for God nor any love for Others. They were fruitless. And let me tell you something about internet chatting. You may say to yourself, "I'm not really this arrogant in real life or manipulative or condescending," but hear me very clear. Your posts reveal your heart and your heart lacks any love. If you cannot love those whom you can see, how can you love a God whom you can't see?

Here's the thing Brother Jon, you keep saying the spiritually dead can hear, but the bible avers differently. Dead in the English comes from the Greek word 'nekros' which means 'corpse'. Then your side of the debate says that 'dead does not mean dead' but separation from God. Then your side of the debate says 'hate does not mean hate' but to love less.

Now , in that case, how do we know that God's love is really love? By you side of the debate's standards, love could mean 'God just tolerates us better'. Words then become subjective to each individual.

 

[JonShaff]

Here's the thing Brother Jon, you keep saying the spiritually dead can hear, but the bible avers differently. Dead in the English comes from the Greek word 'nekros' which means 'corpse'. Then your side of the debate says that 'dead does not mean dead' but separation from God. Then your side of the debate says 'hate does not mean hate' but to love less.

Now , in that case, how do we know that God's love is really love? By you side of the debate's standards, love could mean 'God just tolerates us better'. Words then become subjective to each individual.

I don't see that in my responses. Please quote and we can discuss, thanks!

 

[HankD]

Not trying to win a popularity contest, Hank.
People need to be honest and not manipulative, especially when we address God's word.
A person doesn't know what they don't know, which is fine. But a person who doesn't know what they don't know, but imagines they do is not fine. Those who purposely obfuscate are wrong and should not be tolerated.

speakest of thyself John Alden?


HankD

 

[HankD]

Hear is an account where God spoke to one who was indeed spiritually dead:
Not only that the spiritually dead one heard and answered God's question and then made a prayer request that God answered in a positive way:

Genesis 4
9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.


HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

How about quote one who gives themselves credit. This is just a straw man argument.


Nothing wrong with giving God all credit. What is wrong is limiting God to being so stupid that he can't win a game of checkers without moving all the pieces for you.



God can DO ANYTHING, but he can't give anything free will.


Why do you think God is so DUMB and POWERLESS? and then your upset with us because we don't agree God is an idiot.


If we accept the God of Calvinism, we would be sinning. Because we would have to accept an God is an idiot.


Look Calvinist God is so furious that all the wrath towards you is Jesus directed instead. God is just chimp-furious as to why all the sinning he planned to happened.....happened and takes it out on Jesus.

Again even a volcano god where you throw folks in a volcano isn't so stupid.

Convince me God is an idiot and I will be Calvinist instantly.

Where does it state that we still have free will after the Fall then? And why do we even need the Holy Spirit to enable us to receive Jesus then?

 

[MennoSota]

Hear is an account where God spoke to one who was indeed spiritually dead:
Not only that the spiritually dead one heard and answered God's question and then made a prayer request that God answered in a positive way:

Genesis 4
9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.


HankD

Hank, was Cain redeemed so his spirit was brought to life from death? Or was Cain still dead in his sins? Did Cain ever receive saving faith?
You are mixing the physical life of Cain, where he heard God, into the spiritual where we have no indication that he ever was made alive.
That is the same problem that Jon is having. He takes physical life and attributes it to spiritual life. If we go by your proposal, Satan should be in perfect union with God...made fully alive because he has heard God's voice. Yet, that is not true in the least. Therefore, we can see that a person can be physically alive, yet spiritually dead. They can hear God physically speak and yet be entirely dead because God has not raised them to spiritual life. That is the image in Ephesians 2. You were dead in your trespasses and sins in which you once lived.

 

[MennoSota]

Let me make this very plain to you and to all who read this. If calvinism produces Christians like you then I don't want your theology. If a theology produces ungodly Character then do I really need to debate it? The Pharisees knew the Scriptures, quoted the Scriptures, bound them to their head and heart (literally). But did not let the Scriptures Get into their Heart. They Had no Love for God nor any love for Others. They were fruitless. And let me tell you something about internet chatting. You may say to yourself, "I'm not really this arrogant in real life or manipulative or condescending," but hear me very clear. Your posts reveal your heart and your heart lacks any love. If you cannot love those whom you can see, how can you love a God whom you can't see?

Interesting judgment on your part. Your comments are expected from one who desires to ignore the scriptures in order to hold on to their pet theologies that place themselves on the throne and make God subservient. I have called out your faulty theology and you get upset. I expect this, even though the better response is to look at scripture and consider if you have a bias that is stopping you from seeing.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hank, was Cain redeemed so his spirit was brought to life from death? Or was Cain still dead in his sins? Did Cain ever receive saving faith?
You are mixing the physical life of Cain, where he heard God, into the spiritual where we have no indication that he ever was made alive.
That is the same problem that Jon is having. He takes physical life and attributes it to spiritual life. If we go by your proposal, Satan should be in perfect union with God...made fully alive because he has heard God's voice. Yet, that is not true in the least. Therefore, we can see that a person can be physically alive, yet spiritually dead. They can hear God physically speak and yet be entirely dead because God has not raised them to spiritual life. That is the image in Ephesians 2. You were dead in your trespasses and sins in which you once lived.

The state of all of us as natural men, sinners, was such that we were at war against God, and we could not surrender by ourselves to God!