John Bunyan on the Sovereign Choice of God

[SovereignGrace]

So one must love God before they can be saved? Noted.

Did your wife say 'I do' whilst hating your guts?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Why does God tell us to "get yourselves a new heart?"

“Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?"

Ezekiel 18:31

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
31. Cast away from you—for the cause of your evil rests with yourselves; your sole way of escape is to be reconciled to God (Eph 4:22, 23).

make you a new heart—This shows, not what men can do, but what they ought to do: what God requires of us. God alone can make us a new heart (Eze 11:19; 36:26, 27). The command to do what men cannot themselves do is designed to drive them (instead of laying the blame, as the Jews did, elsewhere rather than on themselves) to feel their own helplessness, and to seek God's Holy Spirit (Ps 51:11, 12). Thus the outward exhortation is, as it were, the organ or instrument which God uses for conferring grace. So we may say with Augustine, "Give what thou requirest, and (then) require what thou wilt." Our strength (which is weakness in itself) shall suffice for whatever He exacts, if only He gives the supply [Calvin].

 

[JonShaff]

Did your wife say 'I do' whilst hating your guts?

Another terrible earthly analogy that isn't scriptural. Love is an effect of being saved not a prerequisite.

1 John 4:9-10 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

 

[InTheLight]

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
31. Cast away from you—for the cause of your evil rests with yourselves; your sole way of escape is to be reconciled to God (Eph 4:22, 23).

make you a new heart—This shows, not what men can do, but what they ought to do: what God requires of us. God alone can make us a new heart (Eze 11:19; 36:26, 27). The command to do what men cannot themselves do is designed to drive them (instead of laying the blame, as the Jews did, elsewhere rather than on themselves) to feel their own helplessness, and to seek God's Holy Spirit (Ps 51:11, 12).

I see. So God commands us, requires us, to do something that we are totally unable to do. "The command to do what men cannot themselves do is designed to drive them to feel their own helplessness, and to seek God's Holy Spirit." This must surely fall on deaf, um, I mean DEAD ears though, right? Not only that but no one seeks God, so how can this command cause them to do that?

 

[HankD]

No one ever argued that when God spoke with a physically audible voice people could not hear him.
However, more than Saul/Paul heard God on the road to Damascus, but only Saul was made alive so that he was reconciled to Jesus. Paul was made spiritually alive before he could spiritually hear.
This is not difficult to understand. Why do you struggle with this. Hank?

My struggle is with your lack of depth concerning human nature, care for you brethren and the things of God.

There have been several things you have said and methods of debate that give your shallowness away.
When you feel threatened you always turn to an ad hominem type of response/rebuttal.

e.g. By questioning my ability to understand and implying that I am struggling with your calvinistic sophomoric doctrines which you repeat by rote you show that the problem is at best one we share and at worst one that is yours alone.


HankD

 

[MennoSota]

I see. So God commands us, requires us, to do something that we are totally unable to do. "The command to do what men cannot themselves do is designed to drive them to feel their own helplessness, and to seek God's Holy Spirit." This must surely fall on deaf, um, I mean DEAD ears though, right? Not only that but no one seeks God, so how can this command cause them to do that?

What was the purpose of the law? Paul does a wonderful job laying this out in the letter to the Romans. I encourage you to read it. Your questions will be answered.

 

[MennoSota]

My struggle is with your lack of depth concerning human nature, care for you brethren and the things of God.

There have been several things you have said and methods of debate that give your shallowness away.
When you feel threatened you always turn to an ad hominem type of response/rebuttal.

e.g. By questioning my ability to understand and implying that I am struggling with your calvinistic sophomoric doctrines which you repeat by rote you show that the problem is at best one we share and at worst one that is yours alone.


HankD

Fair enough, I suppose, if I were attempting to participate in a classical debate. That is not my attempt. My attempt is to have people answer honestly and without the bias inherent in someone saying "I'm of Pelagian or I'm of Calvin." What does God's word declare. This is not difficult, yet I find this desire by Christians to make it much more complex than it is. Your comment is a case in point.

 

[HankD]

Fair enough, I suppose, if I were attempting to participate in a classical debate. That is not my attempt. My attempt is to have people answer honestly and without the bias inherent in someone saying "I'm of Pelagian or I'm of Calvin." What does God's word declare. This is not difficult, yet I find this desire by Christians to make it much more complex than it is. Your comment is a case in point.

M, I believe you have (perhaps) a ministry to the brethren. But IMO you lack maturity in respect to handling people and the skill set to be kind and gentle with babes.

Yes, Jesus was rough with people but He of course is God come in the flesh.

The apostles as well, however the days of the apostles are over (apart from missionaries) and we have not their authority (apart from scripture).

Our demeanor :

2 Timothy 2
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Please don't make a big deal out of the C or A aspect of these verses just take them at face value BUT don't be a hearer only. Thanks M. I am your older brother.

RC Sproul is a good model for a man of patience for you (my opinion of course)

HankD

 

[InTheLight]

What was the purpose of the law? Paul does a wonderful job laying this out in the letter to the Romans. I encourage you to read it. Your questions will be answered.

Nice deflection. I thought maybe you could handle my objection, but I guess not.

Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.

 

[MennoSota]

M, I believe you have (perhaps) a ministry to the brethren. But IMO you lack maturity in respect to handling people and the skill set to be kind and gentle with babes.

Yes, Jesus was rough with people but He of course is God come in the flesh.

The apostles as well, however the days of the apostles are over (apart from missionaries) and we have not their authority (apart from scripture).

Our demeanor :

2 Timothy 2
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Please don't make a big deal out of the C or A aspect of these verses just take them at face value BUT don't be a hearer only. Thanks M. I am your older brother.

RC Sproul is a good model for a man of patience for you (my opinion of course)

HankD

Thanks for your unsolicited evaluation Hank.

 

[MennoSota]

Nice deflection. I thought maybe you could handle my objection, but I guess not.

Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.

It's not a deflection. Paul addressed your specific concern. Read the letter to the Romans.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I see. So God commands us, requires us, to do something that we are totally unable to do. "The command to do what men cannot themselves do is designed to drive them to feel their own helplessness, and to seek God's Holy Spirit."

Exactly so. The inability is moral, not constitutional. They cannot because they will not. We constantly tell drug addicts, alcoholics, wife-beaters etc. to reform, and when they say, "I can't do it! It's who I am" we don't say, "Oh! That's alright then; carry on!"

This must surely fall on deaf, um, I mean DEAD ears though, right? Not only that but no one seeks God, so how can this command cause them to do that?

It will do unless God gives these people spiritual life, but the call to repent is part of the Gospel, and the Gospel is God's chosen means of saving sinners, so we preach, praying that God will give us the increase.

 

[HankD]

Thanks for your unsolicited evaluation Hank.

You are welcome.

HankD

 

[SovereignGrace]

I see. So God commands us, requires us, to do something that we are totally unable to do. "The command to do what men cannot themselves do is designed to drive them to feel their own helplessness, and to seek God's Holy Spirit." This must surely fall on deaf, um, I mean DEAD ears though, right? Not only that but no one seeks God, so how can this command cause them to do that?

And if we can make a new heart ourselves, then there is no need of God doing it.

This is Pete Puma theology...."Oh no you don't, I'll help myself." Then proceeds to repeatedly bash himself in the head with a mallet.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Another terrible earthly analogy that isn't scriptural. Love is an effect of being saved not a prerequisite.

Marriage betwixt a man and woman is a picture of salvation. If the one you wanted to marry you hated your guts, in no way, shape, form or fashion would she say "I do". You loved your wife before you proposed and therefore, you proposed and she loving you as well, said yes. God loved us before we entered into the salvation covenant. God, by His divine quickening, gave us a new heart, a heart that loved Him. We then sought Him. These happen simultaneously.

1 John 4:9-10 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

He loved us even while we were His enemy.[Romans 5:11] It was when He divinely quickened us, that our hatred for Him changed. When I cried out to God to save me, I loved Him. He saved me.

 

[InTheLight]

It's not a deflection. Paul addressed your specific concern. Read the letter to the Romans.

Not a deflection? LOL.

Yeah, I'm gonna go read an entire book of the Bible because you can't articulate your thoughts.

 

[InTheLight]

And if we can make a new heart ourselves, then there is no need of God doing it.

This is Pete Puma theology...."Oh no you don't, I'll help myself." Then proceeds to repeatedly bash himself in the head with a mallet.

Hey, I didn't write Ezekiel 18, God did. Those verses were basically transcribed by Ezekiel. It's up to you to figure out what God was saying when he commanded the Israelites to get themselves a new heart or perish.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Nice deflection. I thought maybe you could handle my objection, but I guess not.

Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.

No, Brother MennoSota was spot on. God gave the Jews the Law to kept, kept them to the demands of it, killing mny who broke it, knowing full well they could not keep it.

We are commanded to be holy as He is holy. It is God's command to be holy, but He knows we cant, but He still commands it.

Just like Acts 17:30. God commands all men everywhere to repent. Even those who died never hearing the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

A few weeks ago, a Gideon spoke at church and said that they were making inroads into India. Yet, 1.3 BILLION ppl, in India alone, have not heard the gospel. A few months ago on 'Focus on the Family' they said that 8 BILLION ppl worldwide had not heard the gospel. And in C.I. Scofield's book 'Prophecy Made Plane'(not a dispy but mhy pastor loaned it to me), he stated in that book over 800 MILLION ppl had not heard the gospel. I don't know where they pull these #'s from, but it shows that many have, are, and will die never hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ. And they are commanded to repent, too.

 

[InTheLight]

Exactly so. The inability is moral, not constitutional.

I'm failing to see the difference. According to Calvinists, God commands people to repent and then doesn't give them the ability to do so. In fact, he commands all men everywhere to repent and then bypasses millions of people by not giving them the ability to do so.

It will do unless God gives these people spiritual life

So God commands all men everywhere to repent and then he picks and chooses the ones he wants to save. When man does not repent, that's man's fault.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hey, I didn't write Ezekiel 18, God did. Those verses were basically transcribed by Ezekiel. It's up to you to figure out what God was saying when he commanded the Israelites to get themselves a new heart or perish.

And if they could have, there would have been no need for Christ to come in the flesh.

The heart here is man's inner being. Man's inner being is an enemy of God. It hates Him. That is why a divine work of grace has to take place first.