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Critics want to ban Franklin Graham from UK

church mouse guy

Well-Known Member
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I have no desire to debate the term. It's meanings already exist. There are at least two, as it seems you are unaware.

First, the original meaning was to define people who held to the following doctrines:

1. The inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture
2. The deity of Jesus Christ
3. The virgin birth of Christ
4. The substitutionary, atoning work of Christ on the cross
5. The physical resurrection and the personal bodily return of Christ to the earth.

Yet another use of the term is in describing people who are KJV-onlyists, premillennialist obsessed with the "rapture", those who think that America is a Christian nation, etc. I think that FG falls into both groups.

Lastly, I wouldn't refer to the term, "fundamentalism" as a "theological term".

Wow, thanks for the unwarranted personal attack. You alone consider Franklin Graham a Fundamentalist, although I am sure that he agrees with your five points, but those are not all that being a Fundamentalists entails. Read The Fundamentals: A Testimony To The Truth (circa 1910-1915) for a comprehensive definition. I myself probably use the KJV more than Franklin Graham does; who know what he believes on dispensationalism; everyone agrees that this is a post-Christian era, although many of the American Founding Fathers were devout Christians. Haven't you noticed that posters have been telling you that the Grahams left fundamentalism half a century ago?

th
 

Rant

Member
MMMM> I as Rant seem to have to walk on egg shells and >say Not > to say !!> but you come to me on this frorum >>WHY<<>>, after all the heretical and nonsensical garbage you post here on a daily basis, you have no business calling anyone "apostate"""why can you say this to me and nothing is done
 

Rant

Member
I have a very thick Skin but it seems I have to take it but If "I step over the line "I'm the one that has to fall no matter WHAT?!
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Critics want to ban Franklin Graham from UK

I'm a conservative Christian, and I want to ban him from the US. His brand of fundamentalism, the world could do without.
I like him. I am sure he has helped more hurting people than you have.
 

thatbrian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I like him. I am sure he has helped more hurting people than you have.

You don't need to be so insecure. You don't have to take my dislike of him as an attack on you, which it certainly is not. And, you might want to argue in some other manner because "helping hurting people" isn't measure of truth.

Would you convert to Roman Catholicism because Mother Theresa "helped hurting people"?
 

thatbrian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Wow, thanks for the unwarranted personal attack. You alone consider Franklin Graham a Fundamentalist, although I am sure that he agrees with your five points, but those are not all that being a Fundamentalists entails. Read The Fundamentals: A Testimony To The Truth (circa 1910-1915) for a comprehensive definition. I myself probably use the KJV more than Franklin Graham does; who know what he believes on dispensationalism; everyone agrees that this is a post-Christian era, although many of the American Founding Fathers were devout Christians. Haven't you noticed that posters have been telling you that the Grahams left fundamentalism half a century ago?

th

Where exactly is the personal attack in my post?
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You don't need to be so insecure. You don't have to take my dislike of him as an attack on you, which it certainly is not. And, you might want to argue in some other manner because "helping hurting people" isn't measure of truth.

Would you convert to Roman Catholicism because Mother Theresa "helped hurting people"?
The Grahams have also won more lost people than you.
 

thatbrian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Grahams have also won more lost people than you.

Their dog is probably better behaved than mine, and the credit limit on their AMEX card is higher too; however, none of that addresses the matter at hand, which is regarding fundamentalism, legalism, and moralism.

Also, you might want to look at the statistics regarding decisional evangelism such as that practiced by Billy. After 1 year, not many are different than they were prior.
 
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rsr

<b> 7,000 posts club</b>
Moderator
Liberals usually say they are not liberal, like blue-dog democrats, or moderate democrats, but when push comes to shove, they vote hard left. Pay no attention to those who use their own definitions for terms. This how liberals rewrite the Constitution and the Bible.

I am so glad you have decided to expand your expertise from biblical translation and soteriology to politics. You are equally expert in all of them.

I especially like it that you call people liars who don't hew to your own definitions.

It is possible, though you cannot imagine it, that the same word can have more than one meaning. You may not like it, but there it is.
 

rsr

<b> 7,000 posts club</b>
Moderator
Oh, I am unaware according to you. No one considers Graham a Fundamentalist.

Pretty much. I would say that people who don't know what a true Fundamentalist is would consider Graham a fundamentalist. Kind of like people with no knowledge of Islam think they know what an Islamic fundamentalist is.
 

thatbrian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No one considers Graham a Fundamentalist.

I have stated that I do, and I am certainly someone. Just ask my mother.

Firstly, I myself am a fundamentalist, in the original sense of the word. I stand opposed to Liberalism in these 5 ways. If Franklin Graham is not a fundamentalist in this way, please demonstrate where he fails this test.

1) The inerrancy of scripture

2) The virgin birth of Christ

3) Substitutionary atonement

4) Christ's bodily resurrection

5) The authenticity of the miracles of Christ


Secondly, the term Fundamentalist has evolved and taken on a negative connotation. I'll paste a quote describes those changes. If Franklin Graham is not a fundamentalist in this way, please demonstrate how.

. . .fundamentalism soon strayed from its noble beginnings by tacking on many non-fundamentals as every bit as important as the true essentials of the faith. By the 1920s, it was common for fundamentalists to espouse a host of “non-fundamentals” as just as important or even more important than the short list of doctrines which they had originally identified as fundamentals of the faith. That tendency, which I will call “Non-Fundamental Fundamentalism,” continues to this day.

Many secondary doctrines and matters of opinion found their way to the essentials list of the Non-Fundamental Fundamentalists. I will discuss teetotalism, preservation of the white race, and separatism in subsequent articles of this series. In this article, I will discuss two primary non-essentials which early on became intertwined with the very definition of Christian fundamentalism: dispensationalism and premillennialism.

• Dispensationalism is the belief that God has dealt with humanity differently during different ages (e.g., before Christ and after Christ) and with different groups of people (e.g., Jews and Christians). The majority of the original fundamentalists were dispensationalists. C.I. Scofield popularized dispensationalism with the publication of his Scofield Reference Bible in 1909. Clarence Larkin’s immodestly titled book, The Greatest Book on Dispensational Truth in the World, much beloved by dispensationalists to this day and featuring Larkin’s hand-drawn dispensational charts, was published in 1918.

Many Protestants today are dispensationalists by default, unaware that there are other ways to interpret God’s word. The primary alternative to dispensationalism in Protestant churches is covenant theology. However, the choice between dispensationalism and covenant theology is certainly not a fundamental of the faith. There are genuine Christians among the adherents of both schools of interpretation. Dispensationalism is not a fundamental.

• Premillennial eschatology: Closely connected to dispensationalism is premillenialism, the belief that Bible prophecy provides a detailed literal description of end-time events, including a rapture of the saints, a horrific period of tribulation, the Second Coming of Christ, and a literal 1,000-year reign of Christ on Earth.

Many excellent Bible scholars are dispensationalists and/or premillennialists, while many equally excellent Bible scholars hold to other systems of interpretation. However, the vast majority of original fundamentalists were premillennial dispensationalists. As a result, both premillennialism and dispensationalism became distinguishing characteristics of the Fundamentalist Movement. WHY I AM NO LONGER A CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALIST: PART 2 “Non-Fundamental Fundamentalism” and Premillennial Dispensationalism | Joshua One Ministries

Here's a little history which you may find helpful:

In 1910 the Presbyterian General Assembly, in response to some questions raised about the orthodoxy of some of the graduates of Union Theological Seminary, adopted a five-point declaration of "essential" doctrines. Summarized, these points were: (1) the inerrancy of Scripture, (2) the Virgin Birth of Christ, (3) his substitutionary atonement, (4) his bodily resurrection, and (5) the authenticity of the miracles. These five points . . . were not intended to be a creed or a definitive statement. Yet in the 1920s they became the "famous five points" that were the last rallying position before the spectacular collapse of the conservative party. Moreover, because of parallels to various other fundamentalist short creeds (and an historian's error), they became the basis of what (with premillennialism substituted for the authenticity of the miracles) were long known as the "five points of fundamentalism." paleoevangelical: The Five Points of Fundamentalism: What Are They Good For?

 
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thatbrian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Thanks, Salty. Not that I think Wiki is always the best source, but in this case, it covers the history pretty well, along with the changing of the definition of the term. I've used the term here in a manner consistent with both its original meaning and the evolution of it.

The Wiki page includes a heading on the changing of the definition of the term, over time. If you scroll down to "Changing interpretations" Wiki Christian Fundamentalist
 
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Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Their dog is probably better behaved than mine, and the credit limit on their AMEX card is higher too; however, none of that addresses the matter at hand, which is regarding fundamentalism, legalism, and moralism.

Also, you might want to look at the statistics regarding decisional evangelism such as that practiced by Billy. After 1 year, not many are different than they were prior.
I know many Calvinists do not approve of mass evangelism. Do you really not think it works, or are you hunting an excuse not to do it?
 

church mouse guy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Where exactly is the personal attack in my post?

Here is what you said: "have no desire to debate the term. It's meanings already exist. There are at least two, as it seems you are unaware."

You refused to agree to a definition of terms and you also accused me personally of not being aware of your common definition. You should stick to the topic and not describe your opponents just as common courtesy. And you never answered that Fundamentalism was defined by books edited by Torrey 100 years ago, instead you said that Fundamentalism was not a theological term, although it is the name of a great many Christians. If there is no agreed upon definition of terms, then there is no debate humanly possible. You insist that only your definitions are the only correct ones, although your definitions are inaccurate in all respects.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am so glad you have decided to expand your expertise from biblical translation and soteriology to politics. You are equally expert in all of them.
I especially like it that you call people liars who don't hew to your own definitions.
It is possible, though you cannot imagine it, that the same word can have more than one meaning. You may not like it, but there it is.

Charge one, without quote, I call people liars. I do provide quotes to demonstrate people misrepresent me.
Charge two, without quote, that I am unaware words have more than one meaning. Again a false misrepresentation of my view.

Bottom line, the above post is off topic, and an attack on my character and qualifications. This is all they have folks to deflect away from the liberal theology they support. Of course they deny their rewrite to scripture is liberal. :)
 

thatbrian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I know many Calvinists do not approve of mass evangelism. Do you really not think it works, or are you hunting an excuse not to do it?

Decisionalism is not evangelism.

Masses do get saved when the gospel is proclaimed, no doubt. Read the book of Acts.

Proclamation of the gospel is what we are called to do. The gospel is good news. We proclaim this news, and His elect believe it.
 
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