Featured Spiritual Death

I was kidding. I knew it wouldn't really settle it.

You are starting to sound a bit new age with this one, Obi Wan

 

Perhaps God left that out of the actual Bible because it lacked the flow the rest of Scripture maintained.

The issue I have with your view is that very little is actually in the text of Scripture and none of it is dependent on Scripture.

I do not understand why people believe that God would reveal only fractions of doctrines and leave it up to men to fill in the blanks and put it all together.

Add to this the fact that Scripture makes sense without your additions and the cards are stacked against your tradition actually being correct.

 

The thread is approaching its life expectancy and I will close it in the morning if it is still open.

Don't worry, @The Biblicist , we can start another.

 

Good topic. At Yom Kippur there were two goats. One was offered to God and the priest symbollically put the sins of Israel on the head of the other and released it to an uninhabited place. The latter (the one not killed) is the scapegoat. To the Jews it represented the removal of sin (forgiveness).

Since we are at the tail end of this thread why not start a thread to look at the topic.

 

Sure.

Scripture presents natural man "not spiritually alive", i.e., dead. Dead is a state of not being alive.

However, what was being claimed was that this state of being spiritually dead must mean that at one time we were spiritually alive. This is not how Scripture handles the topic. Scripture tells us there is "of the flesh" and "of the spirit". Not "of the spirit/flesh" died spiritually to be "of the flesh" and then will be born again "of the spirit" and fixed in that state.


Ephesians 2:1-7
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.


We (you and I) were dead in our trespasses and sins. We (you and I) lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind. We (you and I) were by nature children of wrath.

But because of God's great love with which He loved us (reminds us of Deuteronomy 7, doesn't it) even when we were dead in our transgressions (living in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, by nature children of wrath) God made us alive together with Christ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Are you suggesting that that verse implies there was a mutable state of "spiritual life" outside of Christ?

Or are you suggesting that the passage implies that man was spiritually alive and then died and can be made spiritually alive again in Christ (for good this time)?

 

Yea, let me know.

I am apprehensive when people write at much length on topics that Scripture is fairly short about. I worry about how they fill in the space, I suppose.

When I studied ANE thought (at a secular university) they made interesting comparisons about paganism and the Hebrew ideas. Pagan temples were set up along a general idea represented in the Garden of Eden. There was a temple, out of the temple there was a symbolic river (sometimes a real one, or a stream) which fed into an area where people served deity. Sometimes (often) there were ziggurats which gave cities (temple cities) great reputations. The idea was to entice deity to dwell in the temple. The similarities are, IMHO, evident - the temple itself is like an idea of Eden proper, with the river (blessings of deity) supplying the people.

Anyway, that was an interesting topic.

Later in seminary I became interested in Eden as a temple-type for the Hebrew people as well.

So there are very interesting topics to explore.

https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Garden-Right-Adams-Christ/dp/1943539081

 

Thus far you have only tossed out a few unrelated passages - nothing stating that Adam or anyone else was at one time spiritually alive and then died spiritually.

You have assumed that for God to have made Adam "upright" He must have created Him "in Christ". But the problem there is it ignores Christ as the Lamb slain form the foundation of the world. It assumes "upright" means "spiritually alive"/ "in Christ" rather than without sin (which points to the Fall).

Here are a few options to get the conversation rolling:

Show me a verse that states the lost die spiritually (that the lost are born again so they can experience a spiritual death).
Show me a verse that states anyone was spiritually alive and then they died spiritually.
Show me a verse that describes spiritual life as being temporary.
Show me a verse that speaks of a spiritual life outside of Christ.

You can't and we both know it. This is what I mean by "tradition". Your beliefs are not found in Scripture itself. I prefer "mythology", but thought that may be less well received.

 

Romans 7:7-12 NASBS
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting f if the Law had not said, “ YOU SHALL NOT COVET g .” [8] But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. [9] I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; [10] and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; [11] for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. [12] So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

I believe Paul is explaining the nature of the Law and that the Law itself (like God's command to Adam) is not evil but instead brings knowledge of sin.

I do not believe Paul was claiming he was "spiritually alive" before he was considered "under the Law" (their custom was 13 years old, if I remember correctly) and then he died spiritually and later was made alive again in Christ.