Revelation 12 - a Verse by Verse, and even phrase by phrase study

Again, No.

"set up" - Proverbs 8:23 KJB, H5258

נסך ; nâsak

Total KJB Occurrences: 26

poured, 10

pour, 6

cover, 4

offer, 2

set, 2

melteth, 1

molten, 1​

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “molten” [to form], “melteth”, “offer” [as a sacrifice, or to pour out as in offering], “cover” [to place over], “pour” [out as in offering], “poured” [a drink offering, in anointing an object, etc.], except it be in the meaning of 'poured out upon', as in “anointed” [of the Holy Ghost/Spirit] from everlasting, as the Son of God is indeed, the “Christ” even before He is born [Matthew 2:4; Luke 2:11,26 KJB] and/or in the meaning of being the one chosen [and chose] to be “offer[ed]” in sacrifice from before all things were made; a life to be “poured out” as a gift for the redemption, for sin should it arise.

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “set up” carries with it the meanings of “set”, but also dealing with the “anointed” heir and King:

Psalms 2:2 KJB - The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

Psalms 2:6 KJB - Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Psalms 2:7 KJB - I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psalms 2:8 KJB - Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psalms 2:12 KJB - Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.​

"brought forth" - Proverbs 8:24,25 KJB, H2342

חיל / חוּל ; chûl / chı̂yl

Total KJB Occurrences: 68

pain, 6

formed, 5

forth, 4

brought, 3

pained, 3

calve, 2

fall, 2

fear, 2

grieved, 2

grievous, 2

shaketh, 2

stayed, 2

travail, 2

travailed, 2

tremble, 2

trembled, 2

wounded, 2

abide, 1

afraid, 1

anguish, 1

bare, 1

bring, 1

dance, 1

danced, 1

driveth, 1

great, 1

grievously, 1

hope, 1

look, 1

made, 1

patiently, 1

rest, 1

shapen, 1

sorrow, 1

sorrowful, 1

tarried, 1

travaileth, 1

trust, 1

wait, 1

waited, 1​

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “pain”, “painful”, “pained”, “sorrow”, “grievous”, “grievously”, “grieved”, “fall [grievously]”, “great [pain]”, “anguish”, “afraid [troubled]”, “fear”, “wounded”, “tremble”, “trembled”, “shaketh”, “driveth”, “wounded” since the words “rejoicing always before him” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB], “Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.” [Proverbs 8:31 KJB] are associated, which would go with the meanings of “dance” and “danced”. The only way the other meanings may be included within the contextual definition, is in reference to the Son's Godly awesome reverential wonder at the beautiful and marvelous will of His eternal Father, and in the plan of redemption which included the cross. For instance, see “The fear of the LORD” - Proverbs 8:13 KJB.

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB also eliminates the meanings of 'giving birth' to, as meaning in coming into existence/world at some point in time, such as “travail”, “travailed”, “driveth” [as to push forward], “shapen”, “made”, “bring forth”, “brought [forth]”, “bare”, “calve”, “formed” since the words “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way” [Proverbs 8:22 KJB], “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning” [Proverbs 8:23 KJB], “I was there” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB] and “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him.” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB]. The context declares that the Son had ever been with the Father from eternity, ever “with” Him. The only way the other meanings may be included within the contextual definition, is in reference to the Son's being born/made of a woman, taking upon Himself the flesh nature of mankind, and entering into the world through the miracle of “the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh” [1 Timothy 3:16 KJB].

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “brought forth” carries with it the meanings of “stayed” [waited patiently or attended to another, as in 'waiting upon', or ever at the ready, ever at the right hand to obey, called upon to attend], “abide”, “hope” [quietly wait upon/for], “look” [towards, up to], “patiently”, “rest”, “tarried”, “trust”, “wait”, “waited”, since the words “When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB], “When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:” [Proverbs 8:28 KJB], “When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:” [Proverbs 8:29 KJB], “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB; see also Psalms 40:8 KJB]. Thus when the eternal Father called for the eternal Son, the Son who ever waited upon the will of His Father, said, 'Yes, Father, here am I.' and thus the Son was brought to accomplish the Father's decrees:

Genesis 1:1 KJB - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:3 KJB - And God said, ...

Genesis 1:6 KJB - And God said, ..

Genesis 1:7 KJB - And God made t...

Genesis 1:26 KJB - And God said, Let us ..

Genesis 1:27 KJB - So God created ...

John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:10 KJB - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

1 John 1:1 KJB - That which was from the beginning, ... of the Word of life;

1 John 1:2 KJB - (For the life ... that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

1 John 1:3 KJB - ... the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:1 KJB - God, ...

Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:17 KJB - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head ...

Colossians 1:19 KJB - For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.​

 

Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Your translation is faulty (purposefully so). קנניH7069 qanah (Hebrew) doesn't ever mean "created" in all of the scripture. Not once is it used in such context. See my previous respons - Revelation 12 - a Verse by Verse, and even phrase by phrase study

 

Again, not so.

"him, as one brought up [with him]" - Proverbs 8:30 KJB, H525

אָמוֹן ; 'âmôn

Total KJB occurrences: 1

him, as one brought up [with him], 1​

Proverbs 8:30

The Son was eternally the “fellow” [associate, companion, neighbour, etc] of the Father, for notice that it does not say that the Son became the fellow at any time past, but simply says, “the man, my fellow”:

Zechariah 13:7 KJB - Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.​

The Son is the eternal “help meet”, the “right hand of” [thus ever at His right hand] of the Father. The Son is the ever “faithful” one, the ever “obedient” one to His eternal Father, ever honouring His eternal Father's requests and commands, always “delight[ing]” [Proverbs 8:30; Psalms 40:8 KJB] in doing His will. Ever “rejoicing” in the will of His eternal Father. The Son eternally and ever “believes” the word of His eternal Father, and there is no doubt in the Son about the Father. When the eternal Father says, “My Son.” The Son says, “Here am I, my Father.” Most precious. Think of this eternal relationship. Pray right now. Doesn't your own hurt burn within you to be as the Son? See below:

Psalms 40:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

Psalms 40:8 KJB - I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Hebrews 10:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Hebrews 10:8 KJB - Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Hebrews 10:9 KJB - Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.​

The word “'âmôn” Proverbs 8:30 KJB; H525, comes from H539,

אמן ; 'âman

Total KJB Occurrences: 110

believed, 21

Genesis 15:6, 45:26; Exodus 14:31 (2); Numbers 20:12; Deuteronomy 9:23; 1 Samuel 27:12; 1 Kings 10:7; 2 Chronicles 9:6; Job 29:24; Psalms 27:13, 78:22,32, 106:12,24, 116:10, 119:66; Isaiah 53:1; Jeremiah 40:14; Lamentations 4:12; Jonah 3:5​

faithful, 20

Numbers 12:7; Deuteronomy 7:9; 1 Samuel 2:35, 22:14; 2 Samuel 20:19; Nehemiah 9:8, 13:13; Psalms 12:1, 31:23, 89:37, 101:6; Proverbs 25:13 (2), 27:6; Isaiah 1:21,26, 8:2, 49:7; Jeremiah 42:5; Hosea 11:12​

believe, 19

Exodus 4:1,5, 19:8-9 (4); Numbers 14:11; Deuteronomy 1:32; 2 Kings 17:14; 2 Chronicles 20:20 (2), 32:15; Job 9:16, 39:12; Proverbs 26:25; Isaiah 43:9-10 (2); Jeremiah 12:6; Habakkuk 1:5​

sure, 11

1 Samuel 2:35, 25:28; 1 Kings 11:38; Job 24:22; Psalms 19:7, 93:5, 111:7; Isaiah 22:23,25, 33:16, 55:3​

established, 7

1 Samuel 3:20; 2 Samuel 7:16; 1 Chronicles 17:23-24 (2); 2 Chronicles 1:9, 20:20; Isaiah 7:9
​

brought, 5

2 Kings 10:1; Esther 2:7,20; Proverbs 8:30; Lamentations 4:5
​

believeth, 4

Job 15:22, 39:24; Isaiah 28:15-16 (2)​

trust, 4

Job 4:18, 15:15,31; Micah 7:5​

verified, 3

Genesis 42:20; 1 Kings 8:26; 2 Chronicles 6:17​

continuance, 2

Deuteronomy 28:59 (2)​

nurse, 2

Ruth 4:16; 2 Samuel 4:4​

nursing, 2

Numbers 11:12; Isaiah 49:23​

stedfast, 2

Psalms 78:8,37​

assurance, 1

Deuteronomy 28:66​

bringers, 1

2 Kings 10:5​

fail, 1

Jeremiah 15:18​

nursed, 1

Isaiah 60:4
​

stand, 1

Psalms 89:28​

surely, 1

Hosea 5:9​

trusted, 1

Judges 11:20​

trusty, 1

Job 12:20 (2)​

… and is related to H542:

אמן ; 'âmân

Total KJB Occurrences: 2

cunning, 1

Song of Songs 7:1​

workman, 1

Song of Songs 7:1 (2)​

… and is related to H541:

אמן ; 'âman

Total KJB Occurrences: 1

right, 1

Isaiah 30:21​

… and is related to H540:

אמן (Aramaic) ; 'ăman

Total KJB Occurrences: 2

believed, 1

Daniel 6:23
​

faithful, 1

Daniel 6:4​

"from everlasting" - Proverbs 8:23, H4480, H5769

“from”

מנּי / מנּי / מן ; min / minnı̂y / minnêy

Total KJB Occurrences: 79

“everlasting”

עלם / עולם ; ôlâm

Total KJB Occurrences: 438

"or ever" - Proverbs 8:23, H4480, H6924

“or”

מנּי / מנּי / מן ; min / minnı̂y / minnêy

Total KJB Occurrences: 79

“ever”

קדמה / קדם ; qedem / qêdmâh

Total KJB Occurrences: 99

See parallels in:

Deuteronomy 33:27 KJB - The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

Habakkuk 1:12 KJB - Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

Micah 5:2 KJB - But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.​

 

A thorough study on Proverbs 8 is not 'everything including the kitchen sink", and no intention of "drown out truth", but to vindicate Truth by the Word (Isa. 8:20).

'Hand-waving' and 'posturing', is not addressing the evidence presented from scripture and use therein. It is a position of error, which must do those things. It is an unwillingness to consider a position which is contrary to one's own that makes one do such a thing.

 

Speak with the site owners to upgrade their forums, otherwise please do not derail the thread with off-topic commentary which in no way participates with the OP or content therein.

 

Of course not. It 'sirach (ecclesiasticus)' contains heresy contrary to the rest of actual scripture (Isa. 8:20).

It was also not included by the Jews, who had been given the keeping of the "oracles" of God - How Many Books Are In The Old Testament?

"... Canon LX.

These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world; 2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.

And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon. ..." - NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils - Christian Classics Ethereal Library​

No "sirach".

"The apocryphal books were not admitted into the canon of Scripture during the first four centuries of the Christian church. They are not mentioned in the catalogue of inspired writings made by Melito, bishop of Sardis, who flourished in the second century, nor in those of Origen, in the third century, of Athanasius, Hilary, Cyril of Jerusalem, Epiphanius, Gregory Nazianzen, Amphilochius, Jerome, Rufinus, and others of the fourth century; nor in the catalogue of canonical books recognized by the Council of Laodicea, held in the same century, whose canons were received by the Catholic Church; so that, as Bishop Burnet well observes, "we have the concurring sense of the whole church of God in this matter." To this decisive evidence against the canonical authority of the apocryphal books, we may add that they were never read in the Christian church until the fourth century, when, as Jerome informs us, they were read "for example of life and instruction of manners, but were not applied to establish any doctrine;" and contemporary writers state that although they were not approved as canonical or inspired writings, yet some of them, particularly Judith, Wisdom, and Ecclesiasticus, were allowed to be perused by catechumens. As proof that they were not regarded as canonical in the fifth century, Augustine relates that when the book of Wisdom was publicly read in the church, it was given to the readers or inferior ecclesiastical officers, who read it in a lower place than those books which were universally acknowledged to be canonical, which were read by the bishops and presbyters in a more eminent and conspicuous manner. To conclude: Notwithstanding the veneration in which these books were held by the Western Church, it is evident that the same authority was never ascribed to them as to the Old and New Testament; until the last Council of Trent, at its fourth session, presumed to place them all (excepting the prayer of Manasseh and the third and fourth books of Esdras) in the same rank with the inspired writings of Moses and the prophets." - An Introduction to the Critical Study and Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures. by Thomas Hartwell Horne, B.D. of Saint John's College, Cambridge; rector of the United Parishes of Saint Edmund the King and Martyr and Saint Nicholas Acons, Lombard Street; Prebendary of Saint Paul's; New Edition, from the Eighth London Edition, Corrected and Enlarged. Illustrated with numerous maps and fac-similies of Bilical Manuscripts. Volume I. Philadelphia: Published by J. Whetham & Son, 144 Chestnut Street. Stereotyped by L. Johnson. 1841.; page 426 (left column) - An Introduction to the Critical Study and Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures

How Many Books Are In The Old Testament?

Apocrypha, and the reasons they are not accepted as "canon":

"... 1. Not one of them is in the Hebrew language, which was alone (a little Syriac/Chaldee in Daniel, etc.) used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.

2. Not one of the writers lays any claim to inspiration.

3. These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish Church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.

4. They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian Church.

5. They contain fabulous statements, and statements which contradict not only the canonical Scriptures, but themselves; as when, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in as many different places.

6. It inculcates doctrines at variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead...

7. It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination and magical incantation. ..." - Sam Gipp - https://samgipp.com/answerbook/?page=34.htm
.

 

God commands even the ravens (unclean birds) to feed His messengers.

 

I never said any such thing. I also did not intimate any such thing. The "earth" is that country that the Woman fled to. Just as the "sea" were those areas which brought about the other nations (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Papal Rome; Atheistic France) in Daniel, Revelation.

 

(in a low whisper) *Ahem*, Excuse me, but your 'fear' is showing ...