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Rethinking the penal substitution atonement

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Abd al-masih, Dec 30, 2019.

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  1. Abd al-masih

    Abd al-masih New Member

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    Regarding the penal substitution atonement, I recently questioned whether the penal substitution view represents the whole picture of God's plan of salvation. Please note that I'm not attacking the penal substitution view, it's true that Christ substitutes us to face God's penalty and wrath for us on the cross, but I'm thinking whether of not it's the complete truth of God's salvation, does salvation mean to be saved from the penalty of sins only, or does it mean more than that? Does Matthew 1:21 mean that salvation also means to be saved from sin itself too? If salvation means more than being saved from the penalty, does it mean that the penal substitution atonement view of salvation is not accurate?


    Penal substitution - Wikipedia
     
    #1 Abd al-masih, Dec 30, 2019
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  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Its more an that. I know of no one who belivess it is the only view that represents the whole picture. If there are people who do believe that they are an outlier
     
    #2 Revmitchell, Dec 30, 2019
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  3. Nicolaus Mourer

    Nicolaus Mourer Member

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    Of course it's not the only aspect to salvation; however, caution must be had in not delving too far to the other side of the boat like those sinless perfectionists that will say a person isn't saved unless they're "totally freed of sin in their lives."
     
    #3 Nicolaus Mourer, Dec 30, 2019
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  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    There is no doubt Christ suffered at the hands of humankind. “Father forgive them....”

    There is no doubt that such suffering was prophecies in the ancients.

    However,

    1) Appeasement of God’s wrath for believers doesn’t oblige God pouring wrath out upon the Son, for such wrath would then be extinguished, yet wrath remains for unbelievers.

    2) At no place in the OT sacrificial system is such wrath as some assign to penal substitution to be found.

    3) The Galatians quotes the OT declaring “for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree””. Yet, such was for purpose, not wrath, “13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.”

    4) There are no OT statements by prophets, nor by Moses types that present a declaration of God pouring wrath out upon the Son. ​

    Rather what is seen at the crucifixion?

    Humans in ultimate rebellion toward the Son - remember the parables? (Matthew 21)

    The rejoicing of all heavenly hosts as the Son takes the Scroll from God. (Rev. 5)

    Even the very statements of the Son found in Psalm 22 do not disclose wrath being poured out by Hod upon the Son, but rather the Son’s trust in God.​

    Christ certainly suffered forensically (penal) and was our substitute. But the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit working in concert through, and throughout all aspects of the crucifixion brought reconciliation that those who believe are not condemned, yet those who do not are already condemned.
     
    #4 agedman, Dec 30, 2019
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  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    It does present the best viewpoint in regards to how Jesus atoned for our sins though!
     
    #5 Yeshua1, Dec 31, 2019
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I fully support it but other views so long as they are correct and true era equally important.
     
    #6 Revmitchell, Dec 31, 2019
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I actually have much bigger issue with those who deny that there is any Penal substitution involved!
     
    #7 Yeshua1, Dec 31, 2019
  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Its extreme liberalism at its best
     
    #8 Revmitchell, Dec 31, 2019
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, as its in a sense making salvation works based!
     
    #9 Yeshua1, Dec 31, 2019
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  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I know many who reject Penal Substitution Theory, but are you aware of any "who deny that there is any penal substitution involved"?

    I ask because it seems pretty clear that Christ is the "second Adam", the "Firstborn", in Whom we escape the wrath to come. I am unaware of anyone who rejects that just as I am unaware of anyone who rejects that Christ has freed us from the law of sin and death.

    Insofar as prioritizing Scripture, I do not know that this is proper. Perhaps it is best to deal with it as it is written.

    The main theme of Atonement seems to be ransoming man and freeing mankind from the bondage that has held it in slavery (this is the most often stated motif). Individual theories of atonement seem to focus on different but equally important aspects.
     
    #10 JonC, Dec 31, 2019
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  11. Abd al-masih

    Abd al-masih New Member

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    One thing that interests me is A.W.Pink's view on Penal Substitution, did he reject or accept Penal Substitution? I remember he once said that true salvation means to be saved from sins rather than from the penalty of sins, and many people just want to be saved from the penalty of sins.
     
    #11 Abd al-masih, Jan 1, 2020
  12. Abd al-masih

    Abd al-masih New Member

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    Regarding the "theories" about God's atonement, it seems that most of these "theories" don't mention about being delivered from sins itself.
     
    #12 Abd al-masih, Jan 24, 2020
  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    You dont know what you are talking about. Quite frankly I am suspicious of your use of quotes.
     
    #13 Revmitchell, Jan 24, 2020
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The main theme to me is to have God bringing about a Covenant relationship between Himself and sinners again.
     
    #14 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2020
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