1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Rethinking the penal substitution atonement

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Abd al-masih, Dec 30, 2019.

  1. Abd al-masih

    Abd al-masih New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2019
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Regarding the penal substitution atonement, I recently questioned whether the penal substitution view represents the whole picture of God's plan of salvation. Please note that I'm not attacking the penal substitution view, it's true that Christ substitutes us to face God's penalty and wrath for us on the cross, but I'm thinking whether of not it's the complete truth of God's salvation, does salvation mean to be saved from the penalty of sins only, or does it mean more than that? Does Matthew 1:21 mean that salvation also means to be saved from sin itself too? If salvation means more than being saved from the penalty, does it mean that the penal substitution atonement view of salvation is not accurate?


    Penal substitution - Wikipedia
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    48,609
    Likes Received:
    2,841
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Its more an that. I know of no one who belivess it is the only view that represents the whole picture. If there are people who do believe that they are an outlier
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. Nicolaus Mourer

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    16
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Of course it's not the only aspect to salvation; however, caution must be had in not delving too far to the other side of the boat like those sinless perfectionists that will say a person isn't saved unless they're "totally freed of sin in their lives."
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,278
    Likes Received:
    839
    Faith:
    Baptist

    There is no doubt Christ suffered at the hands of humankind. “Father forgive them....”

    There is no doubt that such suffering was prophecies in the ancients.

    However,

    1) Appeasement of God’s wrath for believers doesn’t oblige God pouring wrath out upon the Son, for such wrath would then be extinguished, yet wrath remains for unbelievers.

    2) At no place in the OT sacrificial system is such wrath as some assign to penal substitution to be found.

    3) The Galatians quotes the OT declaring “for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree””. Yet, such was for purpose, not wrath, “13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.”

    4) There are no OT statements by prophets, nor by Moses types that present a declaration of God pouring wrath out upon the Son. ​

    Rather what is seen at the crucifixion?

    Humans in ultimate rebellion toward the Son - remember the parables? (Matthew 21)

    The rejoicing of all heavenly hosts as the Son takes the Scroll from God. (Rev. 5)

    Even the very statements of the Son found in Psalm 22 do not disclose wrath being poured out by Hod upon the Son, but rather the Son’s trust in God.​

    Christ certainly suffered forensically (penal) and was our substitute. But the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit working in concert through, and throughout all aspects of the crucifixion brought reconciliation that those who believe are not condemned, yet those who do not are already condemned.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    45,451
    Likes Received:
    2,241
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It does present the best viewpoint in regards to how Jesus atoned for our sins though!
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    48,609
    Likes Received:
    2,841
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I fully support it but other views so long as they are correct and true era equally important.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    45,451
    Likes Received:
    2,241
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I actually have much bigger issue with those who deny that there is any Penal substitution involved!
     
  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    48,609
    Likes Received:
    2,841
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Its extreme liberalism at its best
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    45,451
    Likes Received:
    2,241
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, as its in a sense making salvation works based!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    18,645
    Likes Received:
    2,045
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I know many who reject Penal Substitution Theory, but are you aware of any "who deny that there is any penal substitution involved"?

    I ask because it seems pretty clear that Christ is the "second Adam", the "Firstborn", in Whom we escape the wrath to come. I am unaware of anyone who rejects that just as I am unaware of anyone who rejects that Christ has freed us from the law of sin and death.

    Insofar as prioritizing Scripture, I do not know that this is proper. Perhaps it is best to deal with it as it is written.

    The main theme of Atonement seems to be ransoming man and freeing mankind from the bondage that has held it in slavery (this is the most often stated motif). Individual theories of atonement seem to focus on different but equally important aspects.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Abd al-masih

    Abd al-masih New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2019
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist

    One thing that interests me is A.W.Pink's view on Penal Substitution, did he reject or accept Penal Substitution? I remember he once said that true salvation means to be saved from sins rather than from the penalty of sins, and many people just want to be saved from the penalty of sins.
     
  12. Abd al-masih

    Abd al-masih New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2019
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Regarding the "theories" about God's atonement, it seems that most of these "theories" don't mention about being delivered from sins itself.
     
  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    48,609
    Likes Received:
    2,841
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You dont know what you are talking about. Quite frankly I am suspicious of your use of quotes.
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    45,451
    Likes Received:
    2,241
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The main theme to me is to have God bringing about a Covenant relationship between Himself and sinners again.
     
Loading...