Am I Calvinist or Arminian?

[Steven Yeadon]

Hi,

First time on this forum IIRC. I have a big question:

I believe God wants all saved, but that God knows the future state of all souls and many will be damned. I believe this is a paradox because we do not have minds or wisdom like God's.

I draw from Romans 11:32-36 NASB

32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches [l]both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him [m]that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory [n]forever. Amen.

I have been told this is close to the Lutheran view, though different. So, honest question, am I Calvinist or Arminian?

 

[Scarlett O.]

There is another choice....neither. LIke me.

 

[MB]

Hi,

First time on this forum IIRC. I have a big question:

I believe God wants all saved, but that God knows the future state of all souls and many will be damned. I believe this is a paradox because we do not have minds or wisdom like God's.

I draw from Romans 11:32-36 NASB

32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches [l]both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him [m]that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory [n]forever. Amen.

I have been told this is close to the Lutheran view, though different. So, honest question, am I Calvinist or Arminian?

Neither. Just plain christian. Arminians came out of Calvinism. Lutheran's are Calvinist. If you believe in freewill you are not a Calvinist.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Hi,

First time on this forum IIRC. I have a big question:

I believe God wants all saved, but that God knows the future state of all souls and many will be damned. I believe this is a paradox because we do not have minds or wisdom like God's.

I draw from Romans 11:32-36 NASB

32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches [l]both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him [m]that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory [n]forever. Amen.

I have been told this is close to the Lutheran view, though different. So, honest question, am I Calvinist or Arminian?

Does God see us exercising faith and then elects us, or does he elect us first to get saved and then we can receive Jesus by faith?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Does God see us exercising faith and then elects us, or does he elect us first to get saved and then we can receive Jesus by faith?

I don't really delve into that subject. I see it more superficially for now. God desires all saved, but He knows the future already.

I am still making decisions based on scripture regarding deeper things. Throughout scripture, I see God's perfect will for us as frustrated often, which seems to require a will at war with His. A Free Will but only in the sense we choose rebellion or obedience. If you have bible verses that helped you decide on more particular issues I am all ears.

 

[Reformed1689]

If you believe in freewill you are not a Calvinist.

Which, of course, is not true..

 

[Reformed1689]

God desires all saved, but He knows the future already.

If God desired all to be saved, all would be saved.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

If God desired all to be saved, all would be saved.

That's the paradox I see all over scripture. God desires things but does not get them. God rules and reigns on His throne, but somehow His will concerning sin is disobeyed. I don't claim to know how this works, that is the mind of and wisdom of God.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Which, of course, is not true..

Wow, I did not know that. How does free will work in Calvinism?

 

[Reformed1689]

That's the paradox I see all over scripture. God desires things but does not get them. God rules and reigns on His throne, but somehow His will concerning sin is disobeyed. I don't claim to know how this works, that is the mind of and wisdom of God.

Except it does not say anywhere in Scripture that God desires each individual to be saved. If that is what He desired, that is what He would do. But since He does not do that, that is obviously not what He desired.

 

[Reformed1689]

Wow, I did not know that. How does free will work in Calvinism?

Freewill is the freedom to choose what one wants, yes? Can we agree with that? What the Calvinist position holds is that nobody wants good if they are not regenerate. In our natural sinful state we have no righteousness, do not desire true righteousness, do not desire God.

This is found in Romans 3:10-12 as well as other passages.

So are we free to choose to go after what we want? Absolutely! Are we free to choose what our natural want and desire is? Absolutely not.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Except it does not say anywhere in Scripture that God desires each individual to be saved. If that is what He desired, that is what He would do. But since He does not do that, that is obviously not what He desired.

OK there are a lot of verses that show God wants all saved. I quoted one in Romans 11 in the OP to show that God has given all over to disobedience so that He might have mercy on us all. Given scripture, Limited Atonement makes no sense to me. However, I know a number of Calvinists are four-point.

 

[Reformed1689]

OK there are a lot of verses that show God wants all saved. I quoted one in Romans 11 in the OP to show that God has given all over to disobedience so that He might have mercy on us all. Given scripture, Limited Atonement makes no sense to me. However, I know a number of Calvinists are four-point.

Where do you get out of the verses in the OP that God wants to save every individual person?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Freewill is the freedom to choose what one wants, yes? Can we agree with that? What the Calvinist position holds is that nobody wants good if they are not regenerate. In our natural sinful state we have no righteousness, do not desire true righteousness, do not desire God.

This is found in Romans 3:10-12 as well as other passages.

So are we free to choose to go after what we want? Absolutely! Are we free to choose what our natural want and desire is? Absolutely not.

I'm sorry if I seem nitpicky, I will be so with many an Arminian, especially those claiming God looked forward to know Who chose Him. Isn't it difficult to take that theological concept from Romans 3:10-12? I have this problem whenever I delve deep, it seems both sides are basing their view on like a dozen primary verses each. I guess you got me to a real question.

The will is clearly damned before salvation. Without Life by the Spirit it is impossible to be holy. We are changed forever when the Holy Spirit comes in us at salvation. Now, is the will capable of faith? Given faith saves. A cursory study of scripture seems to indicate yes. Though, I don't have enough scripture to say so yet. For good deeds are the result of faith working itself out as Abraham when he offered up Isaac as a sacrifice.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Where do you get out of the verses in the OP that God wants to save every individual person?

Hmm, ok what is the definition of "all" and "every." I can look up a bunch of verses that indicate God is forbearing (in English we may say persevering) that all may come to repentance and the truth as in 2 Peter 3:7-9 (I give 7 to get the previous paragraph of context some room to breath)

7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

 

[Reformed1689]

The will is clearly damned before salvation. Without Life by the Spirit it is impossible to be holy. We are changed forever when the Holy Spirit comes in us at salvation. Now, is the will capable of faith? Given faith saves. A cursory study of scripture seems to indicate yes. Though, I don't have enough scripture to say so yet. For good deeds are the result of faith working itself out as Abraham when he offered up Isaac as a sacrifice.

Ah yes, but here is the key... Where does faith come from?

 

[InTheLight]

If God desired all to be saved, all would be saved.

God desires that all Christians do not sin. Yet Christians DO sin.

Therefore, using your simplistic axiom:

"If God desired that all Christians not sin, all Christians would not sin."

I submit that God does desire all to be saved (2 Peter 3:9), so there must be something happening that invalidates your hypothesis.

Or to quote you, and adapt it regarding Christian's sinning:

If that is what He desired, that is what He would do. But since He does not do that, that is obviously not what He desired.

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[Steven Yeadon]

Ah yes, but here is the key... Where does faith come from?

If you have clear scriptures on this, please share.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I have a great question. I am always drawn back to Acts 13:48

When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

I see this appointing means "as were (Mounce uses 'objects framed or disposed')"

τάσσω | billmounce.com


How do Arminians and Calvinists interpret this using the other scriptures?

 

[InTheLight]

Wow, I did not know that. How does free will work in Calvinism?

Calvinists believe you only have free will once you've been saved. Once you've been saved you can choose to do good works pleasing to God. Before you're saved you only can choose to do bad things.

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