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Featured The P in T.U.L.I.P

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Jun 15, 2020.

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  1. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    No the P in the calvernist/ Augustine scheme has to have a person showing a continued progression of works and holiness , enduring to the end till final salvation to be saved . the only difference between that and Arminism is that if your elect its God that does this and you cannot jump ship. Both systems rely on works as evidence . Rather I believe Eternal security is that once you believe you are sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption.
     
  2. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    P - Preservation of the Saints
     
  3. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Yes but I'm talking about how the Calvernist ( John piper/ washer / Sproul/ White / MacArther / explain The P .
    Faith alone BUT that faith is never alone .
     
  4. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Which I'm contending leads to despair, doubt and works. Why ? because you can never know from the bible that you are one of the ( Augustines) elect ( frozen chosen ) unless your persevering in good works. just like Calvernist off shoot Armianism it's your works that is the focus.
     
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  5. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Every Calvinist misunderstands Calvinism. Only you, an anti-Calvinist, can properly explain it. That's the argument. :Rolleyes

    R.C. Sproul on Perseverance of the Saints

    "This brings us to the P in TULIP. I’m sure you’ll be delighted to know that I’m not going to change this letter. The letter stands for the “perseverance of the saints.” However, even though I’m not changing the letter, I’m going to change the word. I think the catchphrase, perseverance of the saints, is dangerously misleading because it suggests that the persevering is something that we do, perhaps in and of ourselves.

    I believe, of course, that saints do persevere in faith, and that those who have been effectually called by God and reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit endure to the end. They do persevere, but not simply because they are so diligent in making use of the mercies of God. The only reason we can give for why we continue in the faith until the last day is not because we have persevered so much, but because we have been preserved.

    So, I prefer the term preservation of the saints because this process by which we are kept in a state of grace is something accomplished by God."​
     
  6. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    The P is based on the U . Election is the basis for the P . This is not eternal security. This is ' how do I know I'm elect ' . Many a famous Calvernist on their deathbed doubted there salvation ( election) because of 'lack of fruit bearing.
    Faith alone BUT !!! the faith is never alone . That sounds righteous and pious but essentially it's a slippery slope to works proving salvation . For an example an ' elect ' person in John Calvin's day would not wear jewellery. Over the years this fruit inspecting has many different levels.
     
  7. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Notice nothing there about being sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption. Nor receiving eternal life . The above is just a bait and switch. All it's simply saying as the Arminian would agree that it is God who is doing the work in you . Using such things as the ' warning passages ' to keep his elect .
     
  8. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    so far I've not seen a calvernist explain the P without leaning on Election ( The calvernist version of Election .Thus proving The P is based on the Election of Augustine.
     
  9. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Kept in a state of Grace ? why not sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption.
     
  10. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Anti Calvernist? no I just support the bible .
     
  11. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Hold on a minute: - are you saying Barry is anti-Calvinist
    or NON-Calvinist

    BIG DIFFERENCE
     
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  12. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    The only difference I can see by' kept in a state of grace ' in calvernism v Catholicism is that in Catholicism they believe you can fall from a state of grace . The calvernist has to conclude such a person must have not been an elect person all along ( of course allowing for some measure of sin and stumbling )
     
  13. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    JUST A REMINDER
     
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  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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  15. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    There is a difference.

    Since Calvinists don't support the Bible - like Barry does - and the '5 points' are "destructive" and a "trap" - according to Barry - I think "Anti-Calvinist" is appropriate in this instance.
     
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  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Somehow the issue, chosen for salvation, was not addressed. But I hold a similar view, I thing the "beginning" refers to the beginning of the New Covenant in His blood. No one was set apart in Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) until after Christ died.
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Strawman argument.
     
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  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Romans 3:11, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." That is why the gospel must be preached.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another subject change. I did not see where you agreed with scripture that the lost can know spiritual things about God before being indwelt.

    Next, the Calvinist addition to this text is "...there is none that seek after God at any time." Paul's actual point is that we do not seek after God all the time so when we are not seeking after God we are sinning, thus this OT reference makes his point we are all under sin.

    Every time we sin we "turn aside." Every time we sin we do not understand we should not sin.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We have already been adopted and are right now children of God, just awaiting the glorification stage to complete us!
     
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