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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Jun 15, 2020.

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  1. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Luke 18 .
    31¶Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
    32For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
    33And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
    34¶And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
    this Is after they have been 'preaching the gosepl ' which gosepl ? 1 Cor 15 ? which is needed to be believed to be saved . Notice they did not understand the death burial and resurrection. The very thing which is necessary for salvation . Peter is literally chopping off an ear to prevent the very thing that can redeem the world. Oh yeah they were preaching the same message . of course not..Even after the crucifixion The diciples have no clue what's going on . And your telling me they were preaching the death burial and resurrection lol ??
     
    #141 Barry Johnson, Jun 22, 2020
  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    The disciples were going to the Jews and preaching repentance.
    Do you think the disciples, at that time, understood the covenants all revolved around the promised one who would save from every nation, tribe and tongue?
     
    #142 AustinC, Jun 22, 2020
  3. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    If your still preaching to Israel and not the gentiles then
    let me guess you have lined up with covenental theology?
     
    #143 Barry Johnson, Jun 22, 2020
  4. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    #144 Barry Johnson, Jun 22, 2020
  5. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    They were preaching the 'Kingdom 'not the death burial and resurrection..That's painfully obvious. Had the Jewsih leaders accepted their messiah the Kingdom would have began..
     
    #145 Barry Johnson, Jun 22, 2020
  6. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Later this kingdom gospel will be re i
    Salvation is dependant on His faithfulness not ours .
     
    #146 Barry Johnson, Jun 23, 2020
  7. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    " in the end " ..that's my point . This is subtle works salvation.
     
    #147 Barry Johnson, Jun 23, 2020
  8. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    The diciples understood Jesus message to only preach to the Jews about the Kingdom . They expected Jesus to start his reign straight away .
    Acts 1.16
    When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
     
    #148 Barry Johnson, Jun 23, 2020
  9. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Ask your self why your not building an Ark today . Or sacrificing your firstborn Son . Or only Presching to Jews ? or following the 613 commandments and offering sacrifices for sin still . No one in the OT was sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption..They only had there sins forgiven and not redeemed .
     
    #149 Barry Johnson, Jun 23, 2020
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I read about covenants in the Bible. I don't read about dispensations. It's really that easy.
     
    #150 AustinC, Jun 23, 2020
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  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    You dont read where Jesus told the diciples only to go to the jews and to preach the kingdom Gospel ?
     
    #151 Barry Johnson, Jun 23, 2020
  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You are thinking in a human timeline.
    Is God held in time? In other words, does time hold power over God?
    For you, things are happening sequentially. For God, everything is happening all at once. He sees it all happening before His very eyes. The beginning of time and the end of time and all else is happening at once. Therefore, your idea that there are ages where God does things differently, does not apply to God. The age theory is a philosophical human construct of semi-pelagian theologians from the late 19th century. God's covenants with mankind are clearly found in scripture.

    From before the foundations of the world, God chose whom he would adopt. That is because God sees all things happening at once. God always saved by grace, through faith. The law served as a mechanism to show humans how flawed they were and how much they needed redemption. Each person who was saved in the OT, was saved the same way you and I are saved. S/he was saved by grace, through faith.

    I encourage you to throw out your dispensationalism. It functions to muddy up the Bible and promote legalism and works, rather than grace.
     
    #152 AustinC, Jun 23, 2020
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I certainly do read where Jesus tells his disciples to go to Israel and preach the Kingdom. To the Jew first and then to the Gentile.
     
    #153 AustinC, Jun 23, 2020
  14. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    It's always best to start with what the bible says rather than philosophy . What generally happens is a Christian starts off reading the bible just fine but then is taken captive to a theological system and then using post hock rationalization starts to look at the bible with a certain set of Dutch glasses
    I'm talking about when Jesus tells the diciples not to go to the gentiles but only to the jews and the plain fact they were not preaching the death burial and resurrection. They were preaching the coming kingdom ( the imminent ruling and reigning of christ on the earth. )
     
    #154 Barry Johnson, Jun 23, 2020
  15. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    And no you dont have a verse which says we were chosen to salvation nor to adoption before the foundation of the world . The bible is also clear that no Christian receives the ' adoption ' until they are glorified ( Roman's 8.23 ) a believer receives the spirit of adoption but not the adoption as mentioned in Roman's 8 and ephesians 1 . When you lay aside Dutch theology and read the bible you will see this .
     
    #155 Barry Johnson, Jun 23, 2020
  16. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    What Romans 8 are you reading?

    12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.] [Romans 8:12-17 NASB]

    12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. [Romans 8:12-17 KJV]

    12 Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. 13 For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. 15 So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God's Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, "Abba, Father." 16 For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God's children. 17 And since we are his children, we are his heirs. In fact, together with Christ we are heirs of God's glory. But if we are to share his glory, we must also share his suffering. [Romans 8:12-17 NLT]​
     
    #156 atpollard, Jun 23, 2020
  17. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    SIX HOUR WARNING

    This thread shall be closed no sooner than 430 pm EDT / 130 pm PDT
     
    #157 Salty, Jun 23, 2020
  18. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Could you post Roman's 8 .23 please ?
     
    #158 Barry Johnson, Jun 23, 2020
  19. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    And not in the NLT please lol
     
    #159 Barry Johnson, Jun 23, 2020
  20. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Notice it's the ' spirit ' of adoption. The adoption ( total) is what Roman's 8 and ephesians 1 means . Roman's 8 .23 explains that we WAITING for the Adoption . We get the spirit of adoption not ' The adoption ' notice the difference . THE adoption is the redemption of the body . Roman's 8.23 . Ephesians 1 ect .
     
    #160 Barry Johnson, Jun 23, 2020
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