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Featured The P in T.U.L.I.P

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Jun 15, 2020.

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  1. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    One of the reasons I started to look into Calvernism properly ( as I started to lean in the direction ) Was the P in T.U.L.I.P.
    Perseverance of the Saints. I do believe in Eternal security but the Calvernist version of OSAS I do not believe. My question is : Isnt the P in T.U.L.I.P essentially of Lorship / subtle works salvation?
     
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  2. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You really do not have a handle on the teaching at all.
    Take some time to learn the position before posting foolish posts.
     
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  4. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    What do you believe that “Perseverance of the Saints” means?


    What, in your opinion, is “Eternal Security” and what is “OSAS”? How are they different?

    It is difficult to really discuss “emotionally loaded” terms without first establishing what one means by those terms.


    I am not sure what “Lorship / subtle works salvation” is, so I cannot answer directly. If you could define what you mean by the term, then I could respond with a simple “yes” or “no”.

    However, the P in TULIP stand for “Perseverance of the Saints”, which means, in the simplest terms, that the SAINTS will PERSEVERE. To expand upon that, one can define the three critical words:
    • Saints = those who have been saved, whose sins have been forgiven and for whom Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.
    • Will = something that is going to happen, not a mere possibility, but an absolute certainty.
    • Persevere = to continue to the end and finish what was started.
    In it’s purest form, Perseverance of the Saints teaches that no person that God starts on the long journey down the narrow path, will fail to reach the end of that path.
     
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  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes and no. It depends on the Calvinist. Most of the time the "P" only means eternal security.

    You have to remember most of the Calvinists here are Baptists. They may not necessarily hold the neauences found in historic Calvinism. And what they hold varies between individuals and sects.
     
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  6. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Why chew Barry out ? You say you want him to learn.
    So why do you think he was asking a question? What better way to learn!
     
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  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hello Salty,
    I have only began to read Barry's posts.
    I have not seen any interest in learning, but rather he is presenting error after error, ie, a wrong view of foreknowledge , claiming a "gnostic god" is involved.
    Puts Eph 1 from vs 14,down to one, rather than the biblical order.
    I believe he us listening to that podcast, and being mislead.
    If he wants to learn he could ask rather than make pronouncements.
    If I am mistaken I would gladly offer help.
    I will get on my laptop soon.
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    What do you understand by the terms you are using?
    Describe the P.
    Describe osas.
    Lordship Salvation...what do you mean by that?
     
  9. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    In this thread - he has only posted once -which was to ask a question.
     
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  10. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    This topic became the end all of many Christians as if it were meat. It is not meat it is a milk doctrine in the context of the book Hebrews and meat was the Melchezidekian priesthood.
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but I read the end of the closed thread,then this was next up.
    Looks like he is excited to impart things to us.
    Perseverance of the saints. Is not the Calvinists version of osas.
    Osas is a watered down counterfeit of Perseverance of the saints, and Lordship Salvation is a distinct issue.
     
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  12. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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    I am a Calvinist, but I don't follow John Calvin. He had some serious issues in his works. I would rather say that I believe in Reformed Theology. The word 'calvinist' comes with much of baggage.

    You didn't say what you object to in your OP. Can you be more specific about your "works salvation" comment.
     
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  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Do as the Primitive Baptists and read preservation in lieu of perseverance. No room for LS Pharisaic doctrine there.

    [add]

    Perseverance of the Saints v Eternal Security
     
    #13 kyredneck, Jun 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
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  14. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    No.
    But I'd like to address the substance of other comments that have popped up above, before getting into what "Perseverance of the Saints" really means, biblically.
    Keep in mind that these are my own opinions, but arrived at carefully.


    -"OSAS" = "Once Saved, Always Saved".
    Those who believe this acronym ( I grew up being taught this ) basically state it like this...

    Once a person has believed on Christ, they are kept saved in the power of God to the end, no matter what.
    Proponents of this tend to use 1 Peter 1:5 and a combination of passages like John 3:36, John 5:24, John 6:40 and John 10:28-29 in support of it.
    "OSAS" is sometimes said to completely ignore the difference between those who profess and fall away, and those who do not.
    Essentially, anyone who professes Christ and is baptized is saved, no matter what.



    -"Eternal Security" = Same as above, only with the addition of the Scriptural teaching of "wheat and tares" ( Matthew 13 ), true versus false believers.
    All those who truly are Christ's, are secure in their salvation.



    -"Perseverance of the Saints" = " All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end."

    Source: Calvinism and Arminianism comparison

    Basically put, no works are required for a saint to persevere.
    Yes, the Bible does indeed phrase it in a way that makes it appear that believers must persevere in their faith to secure their salvation...
    But judging a book by it's cover is never wise.

    Those works deemed necessary are actually evidences of the Holy Spirit working in someone...
    Yes, they are necessary, but they are necessary criteria or evidences.
    Those works and enduring faith do not determine whether or not one goes to be with the Lord...they reflect the fact that they are saved.

    From my perspective, the "P" is best understood as an act of grace by a loving God towards His children.
    They persevere in their faith because they have been given the true gift of faith ( Ephesians 2:8 ), authored and finished by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ), the evidence of God's work in their lives ( Hebrews 11:1 ) and which is actually the faith "of" ( originating from ) Jesus Christ ( Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22, Romans 3:22 ).

    So, there are two "kinds" of faith, as the parable of the sower describes...
    One that fails when tested,
    and one that does not fail, no matter how hard the trials get;
    Even unto death... like Stephen's faith was, like Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah's ( Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego's ) faith was, like Samson's faith was and like our Saviour's faith was.

    Therefore, the elect will persevere in their faith to the end, because Christ will lose none of the ones that were given to Him by His Father ( John 6:37-39 ).
    His bride, spotless and without blame before Him in love.


    That is the "P".;)
     
    #14 Dave G, Jun 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
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  15. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    "Lordship Salvation" is the teaching whereby people who are preached to are told that they must "make Jesus the Lord of their lives", or they cannot be saved.

    To me, that is "front-loading" the Gospel, and puts a person in the position of having to concentrate on something other than Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
    They then have to worry about whether or not they've "really made Him Lord of their lives", and are always worried that they are not doing enough to be saved.

    I sat under this for a while as a new believer as well.



    As I see it, it's an extra burden placed upon those who will naturally come to see that He is Lord of all, anyway.
     
    #15 Dave G, Jun 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
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  16. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    So many believe this and can’t even acknowledge it


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  17. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    He being dead yet speaketh... I liked this and borrowed it from TC... Brother Glen:)

    That is why I use the term "Preservation of the Saints." It is not our perseverance that gives us assurance, but God's preserving us by His matchless Grace.

    Btw... Thanks Kentucky for directing me over there on post #13
     
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  18. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    I think Chuck Smith borderlines on this as well. Certainly many in his denomination do not understand lordship salvation.
     
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  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Did Solomon 'persevere'? Or was Solomon 'preserved'?
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, as the main emphasis would be that the elect in Jesus shall be shown and confirmed to be that by being found in Him at the end!
     
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