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Featured Is Faith an exclusive gift ?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Oct 23, 2020.

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  1. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Continuing for another thread ( Faith )
    Is the Faith needed for salvation a gift . And is this ' gift 'Exclusive , only given to some ?
    I do not believe this is the case . I also do not believe anyone reading the bible ( alone ) would ever come to this conclusion. This idea as it was introduced to RC sproul as written on the black board of his seminary class " regeneration precedes faith " was a shock to him as he'd always believed that faith preceded regeneration prior .

    Is faith a work ? This seems to be how calvinists are arriving at there conclusions.
    This was a shock to me also when I first understood that within christianity this concept was taught.
    The bible however says that faith is always the opposite of works .( Rom 3.27 ) ?
    Its our faith that is the prerequisite to access the grace . Rom 5.2 . Rom 4.5
    Faith ( pistus) is trust , believe , assurance , conviction ect .

    God gives pistus ( assurance ) of the resurrection in Acts 17 .
    31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance ( pistus) unto ALL MEN in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Eph 2 .8 is often used to support the concept of RPF but this is quite astonishing. I cannot understand how any one without any influence concludes that ' Faith ' is the gift here ..Let alone a EXCLUSIVE gift .

    But here we are . The absolute essential component of salvation is at stake here and within christianity we have a system that says " no . We can't believe, we can't have faith ..Faith has to be given first ?
    I believe that everything we have is a gift from God. Our lives ,our food and the very air we breath . But I don't believe these are ' exclusive ' gifts given only to some of course .
    I could have trust / faith / assurance in a toy car to get me to work but id be putting my faith in the wrong thing ,the wrong object to get me to work . Putting your trust / faith in the right object ( Jesus ) saves us . He saves us when we obey from the heart . When we BELIEVE from the heart . Rom 10,9 . We have to believe
    1cor 1.21
    Thoughts ?
     
    #1 Barry Johnson, Oct 23, 2020
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  2. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    A men brother
    MB
     
    #2 MB, Oct 23, 2020
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  3. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    [Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    "the gift" = "that" = "by grace you have been saved through faith"

    Paul's key points in the verse are that "God's plan of salvation" (by grace through faith ... whatever the source of that faith) IS NOT "a result of works" and IS "the gift of God", THEREFORE "no one may boast" (of thier salvation).

    The issue that I have with the semi-pelagian claim of human-generated faith is NOT that "faith is a work", but rather that the cooperative salvation of Christ's death and OUR FAITH gives us a reason why we certainly "may boast" (in our salvation). Synergysm undercuts the basic message of God saving a people that could not save themselves ... which is the very heart of monergism.


    [PS: Defining SEMI-PELAGIANISM to avoid misunderstanding:
    Semi-Pelagianism was promulgated in the fifth century AD by John Cassian and some other church leaders in France. It took a middle-of-the-road approach to depravity; we are depraved, but not totally so. Semi-Pelagianism allows that humanity is tainted by sin, but not to the extent that we cannot cooperate with God’s grace on our own. Semi-Pelagianism is, in essence, partial depravity as opposed to total depravity. We are sinful, but we can still recognize the truth, cooperate with God’s grace, and choose to seek Christ. We need God’s grace to be saved, but we can take the first step toward Christ on our own, apart from grace. - GotQuestions ]​
     
    #3 atpollard, Oct 23, 2020
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  4. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    When I was saved the Holy Spirit convicted me to begin with. My conviction made me regret my sins. I wanted a clean slate to start over from. By accepting Christ offer of forgiveness and Salvation from my sins I was saved. Your going to say this is work's no matter what I say yet scripture is clear about Salvation. It certainly does not say we are saved first before faith. So that we can believe. Justification comes first by the forgiveness of sin. surrender is our giving up and realizing there is no other way.
    MB
     
    #4 MB, Oct 23, 2020
  5. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what you mean by human 'generated 'faith? If you mean that after we hear the Gospel we believe then ok .
     
    #5 Barry Johnson, Oct 23, 2020
  6. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    God took the first step. We read all the things he has done through , Prophets , through patriarchs, through moses , through Israel, through the apostles through his Son . The death burial and resurrection and the giving of the Holy Spirit. Through Paul and through the completed scriptures and the Gospel . What more grace could God give ? Hasn't he given all first?
     
    #6 Barry Johnson, Oct 23, 2020
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  7. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    You keep telling me what I am going to say and what I believe ... and you are usually wrong.

    What I would say is that "the Holy Spirit convicted me to begin with" is what "Calvinists" call "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" [John 6:44] and is the same as "they were pierced to the heart" [Acts 2:37] and "the Lord opened her heart to respond" [Acts 16:14] ... which is why we say "God makes the first move, and THEN we respond".
     
    #7 atpollard, Oct 23, 2020
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  8. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    "Faith" comes from somewhere. Either WE create our own saving faith, or God creates the saving faith in us. Ephesians 2 does not speak to the question of the origin of faith (one way or the other). So "human generated faith" simply means "saving faith that comes from men as its source"
     
    #8 atpollard, Oct 23, 2020
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  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    What more grace.......Depends on what you mean by “giving of Holy Spirit”?

    peace to you
     
    #9 canadyjd, Oct 23, 2020
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  10. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Ok why would you apply a verse that specifically says the Father draws before the cross . ( Of course in John 12 Jesus says he will then DRAW ALL MEN after the cross ) then you quote another verse ( Different context, different book ) that says ' pierced to the heart ' . Notice it doesn't say ' convicted by the Holy Spirit or ' drawn by the father ? Then you refer to Lydia . Who was already a worshipper of God lol . We don't know what was spoken to her or how her 'heart was opened ' . This is Inductive reasoning not bible study . Why do Calvinists read the bible this way ?
     
    #10 Barry Johnson, Oct 23, 2020
  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    John 7:39

    “(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”
    As an aside this verse shows no one recieved the indwelling of the Holy Spirit prior to Jesus s glorification.
     
    #11 Barry Johnson, Oct 23, 2020
  12. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    If I said you had faith in your wife . would you ask " where did the faith come from " ? Its inate . Faith in doctors , faith in pilots , faith in chairs, faith in the wrong things also . Faith in Allah , faith in Politicians.
     
    #12 Barry Johnson, Oct 23, 2020
  13. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    So is there ANYTHING that God needs to do to save YOU or ME as individuals, or was God's corporate grace for all humanity sufficient and God entered His REST with the completion of Revelation and the death of the Apostle John?
     
    #13 atpollard, Oct 23, 2020
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  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Faith comes by hearing the gospel
    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    No man can have faith in God with out knowing anything about Him. This is why we must hear the gospel preached this teaches us about the Lord and convicts us of our sins. Conviction makes us ask our selves about where we are headed. Heaven or hell.
    MB
     
    #14 MB, Oct 23, 2020
  15. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    ... because MB told me what I would say and he was wrong, so I told him what I would have said.

    Are you also a mind reader telling me that this is NOT what I would have said in response to MB's story about his salvation?
    I sometimes wonder if you have even a shred of integrity. Everything is an opportunity to ridicule and attack. Nothing is ever an attempt to communicate or understand.

    beatus vir qui non abiit in consilio impiorum et in via peccatorum non stetit in cathedra derisorum non sedit

    Finis.
     
    #15 atpollard, Oct 23, 2020
  16. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    That would be "human generated faith" since you believe that WE choose to change because of what we heard (rather than any "supernatural power" in the words or effort of the Holy Spirit to change us using the words ... which would be "God generated faith").

    I was not debating it, I was just defining the term because Barry specifically asked.
     
    #16 atpollard, Oct 23, 2020
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  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I see we have trotted out the ole "semi plagianism" boogyman again. :rolleyes:

    Salvation alone is the gift in Ephesians 2:8,9

    Scripture is clear that faith comes via the word of God. His Holy ,God breathed, gospel that has power itself to lead one to salvation.
     
    #17 Revmitchell, Oct 23, 2020
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  18. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Above what is written in the scriptures? no . The Holy Spirit convicts . The Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation. Faith comes by hearing. We have to be sensitive to what the gnostics believed and even hinduism teaches some concepts about an inner call or an awakening ect Which is why Calvinsm has the accusations about its links to Gnosctism. ( via Augustine)
     
    #18 Barry Johnson, Oct 23, 2020
  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Sorry this is wrong. It is not human generated faith it is gospel generated faith. There is a clear difference.

    Your dismissal of Gods word in this process and its power is concerning.
     
    #19 Revmitchell, Oct 23, 2020
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I see we are stating empty rhetoric again. If you agree with the following ...
    ... then the term "Semi-Pelagian" describes your belief. Semi-Pelagian is not the Pelagian heresy.


    Grammatically, "that" is the "gift" in Ephesians 2:8-9. "That" most likely refers to the FACT in the preceding clause "by grace you have been saved through faith" with Paul making the point that the mode of salvation is "a Gift of God" and not a work of man. So "Faith" and "Grace" are not directly the "gift", but neither are they completely unrelated to the "gift".
     
    #20 atpollard, Oct 23, 2020
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