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Featured Balaam showed No Free Will

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by AustinC, Nov 9, 2020.

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  1. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    Yes.

    Quantrill
     
    #101 Quantrill, Dec 19, 2020
  2. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

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    The Bible is full of examples of God presenting man with a choice between grace and judgment. Ezekiel 33:11 - "As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" I referred you earlier to Deuteronomy 28; you don't seem prepared to call that "picking the right curtain," so how is it different than someone either responding to or rejecting the Holy Spirit's conviction?

    Name one.

    God is the only and absolute source, cause, and provider of salvation (1 John 5:10-13). God has chosen to predicate salvation on whether or not we choose to receive His grace through belief in His Son. You seem to think God can't do that.
     
    #102 Tsalagi, Dec 19, 2020
  3. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

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    Still waiting to see biblical support for these claims, helpfully numbered for you:
    Human constructs, or biblical truths? Search the Scriptures and see if these things are so (Acts 17:11).
     
    #103 Tsalagi, Dec 19, 2020
  4. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for making my point. Austin, scratch this passage from you’re free will arsenal. It’s not related. At all.

    Deal with Adam.


    Blessings
     
    #104 Sai, Dec 19, 2020
  5. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    Adam hid for just a lil bit right? He’d come out from the taro patches eventually. Right?


    Blessings
     
    #105 Sai, Dec 19, 2020
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Neither Ezekiel 33 nor Deuteronomy 28 has to do with redemption. Plus, both are addressing God's chosen people. Therefore, you are plucking verses out of context.

    I named them.
    Ephesians 2:1-9
    John 6, John 10 and John 17
    Matthew 25
    Romans 3, 8 and 9
    Acts 13
    Hebrews 11-12:3

    We don't "choose to receive grace." The thief on the cross proves this as well as Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus.
    If we choose...we get to boast.

    God chooses to give His grace to His predestined and adopted children whom He knew before the foundation of the world. God tells us in Matthew 1 that Jesus came to "save HIS people from their sins."

    Grace is only grace if God is the one giving it without regard to whether a human agrees to receive it. Saul wanted nothing to do with Jesus. God didn't care about Saul's opinion. God saved Saul despite his searing hatred of Jesus. That...is grace. God...giving us...what we don't deserve.

    Grace is not...God offering...and then we choose. If you believe that, then you are a Roman Catholic who believes in merited favor.
     
    #106 AustinC, Dec 19, 2020
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Genesis 2:16-17 - And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

    Genesis 3:6-7 - So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.

    Romans 3:10-23 - As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

    Romans 3:21-28 - But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

    John 10:25-30 - Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
     
    #107 AustinC, Dec 19, 2020
  8. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Job 42:1-6 - Then Job answered the Lord and said: “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. ‘Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you make it known to me.’ I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

    Romans 6:20-21,23 - For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Ephesians 2:1-3 - And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

    Ephesians 2:4-9 - But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
     
    #108 AustinC, Dec 19, 2020
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Biblical truths as I just provided to you.
    You claim you have read the Bible, yet you seem oblivious to what it says.
     
    #109 AustinC, Dec 19, 2020
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    You could be right.

    "..(8) Note that Josephus never supposes Balaam to be an idolater, nor to seek idolatrous enchantments, or to prophesy falsely, but to be no other than an ill-disposed prophet of the true God; and intimates that God's answer the second time, permitting him to go, was ironical, and on design that he deceived (which sort of deception, by way of punishment for former crimes, Josephus never scruples to admit, as ever esteeming such wicked men justly and providentially deceived)....."
    Josephus, Antiquities Book IV (earlyjewishwritings.com)
     
    #110 kyredneck, Dec 19, 2020
  11. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

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    Redemption is not mentioned a single time in Ephesians 2.
    Again, no redemption mentioned. If you're talking about those rejecting Christ not being "My sheep," how are these Pharisees not included in the "chosen people" addressed in Ezekiel 33 and Deuteronomy 28? Do you see any difference between the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" and "My sheep"? Before you answer, review John 1:11-12.
    This is talking about entrance into the millennial kingdom, not salvation. They aren't the same thing.
    You need to be more specific about what part of your view you think is supported in these chapters.
    I direct your attention to verses 38-and 39 in that chapter: forgiveness of sins is proclaimed, and everyone who believes is set free. It's not the other way around.
    This is not a salvation or redemption passage.
    You say the thief on the cross proves we do not choose to receive grace - how so? Who spoke first, Jesus or the thief?

    Saul was not "saved" on the Damascus road. Like the similar religious leaders mentioned above, he was already in the category "chosen people" as those addressed in Ezekiel 33 and Deuteronomy 28. He was a Pharisee "faultless with regard to the righteousness of the law" (Philippians 3:6). You can't have it both ways.

    Scripture says different in Ephesians 2; you are redefining faith as a work in direct contradiction of that passage.

    God chooses to grant salvation by grace through faith. Jesus saving His people Israel from their sins in no way changes that truth, nor is salvation limited only to them. Scripture gives over half a dozen reasons why Jesus came, your quote reflects only one of them.

    Scripture nowhere defines grace this way.

    Again, Jesus did not ask Saul "Why believest thou not in Me?" He had a "zeal for God but not according to knowledge." Acts 26:16-18 clearly states Jesus' purpose in appearing to Saul, and it makes no mention of saving him.

    Again, you contradict Scripture which clearly states that faith is not a work, and that it provides no grounds for boasting. The merit of faith is in its object.
     
    #111 Tsalagi, Dec 19, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2020
  12. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

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    I have no clue as to your point here, sorry. I asked for Scripture references documenting the listed claims. Have you got any?
     
    #112 Tsalagi, Dec 19, 2020
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I knew you would find excuses to not accept scripture.

    I used to follow your Let's Make A Deal, Roman Catholic, merit-based, legalism method of salvation. I kept reading the Bible and God opened my eyes to his amazing grace.

    I can only pray you will see how much you belittle God by lifting up man.
     
    #113 AustinC, Dec 19, 2020
  14. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

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    (1) You said God ordained that Adam could willfully break covenant and sin. There is no mention here of God "ordaining anything related to Adam's will, no mention of a covenant, and no mention of sin. God issuing a command and stating the consequence of disobedience does not create or constitute a "covenant" by any normal definition of the term.

    (2) You said Adam chose to do so; i.e., to willfully "break" a covenant that is not mentioned anywhere in Genesis 1-3.

    (3) You said The result of that covenant breaking is that humans cannot repair the covenant. There is no "covenant" involved, thus no covenant broken, thus no covenant to repair; the Bible doesn't state anything remotely like this. You are injecting human concepts into these passages without justification or warrant. Why not simply deal with the text as it stands?

    (4) You said God must reconcile the covenant. But you cite a passage talking about a different covenant, the law, and it says God has manifested His righteousness APART FROM that covenant. We have a new covenant in the blood of Jesus, not the reconciliation of an old covenant. Your statement has no basis whatever in the Bible.

    (5) You said God reconciles His chosen sheep. There is nothing in this passage about sheep being chosen; it says Christ's sheep respond to His voice and follow Him. You also fail to distinguish reconciliation from the grant of eternal life; they aren't the same thing.
     
    #114 Tsalagi, Dec 19, 2020
  15. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

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    If you were in the right you could address my points instead of attacking my person. 1 Timothy 6 regards, and adios.
     
    #115 Tsalagi, Dec 19, 2020
  16. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    Adam - No Free Will Totally incapable of Seeking God.


    Blessings
     
    #116 Sai, Dec 19, 2020
  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Your point has been "Let's Make A Deal" is God's method of salvation. You call your imaginary view that God puts his present on a street corner for all to choose, "God's grace", while you ignore the truth that God, from Adam onward, has chosen his promised children in saving them by grace through faith.

    You make humans the cause agent that effects God into saving them.

    The Bible shows us that God is the cause agent and the effect is our faithful belief.

    All the Bible. Regards and Adios.
     
    #117 AustinC, Dec 19, 2020
  18. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    And crickets


    Blessings
     
    #118 Sai, Dec 19, 2020
  19. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

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    When God called to Adam in Genesis 3:9, was he able to reply? Did he answer God's questions, and confess his disobedience? The answer is yes.

    Revelation 22:17 - "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
     
    #119 Tsalagi, Dec 19, 2020
  20. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    Hey tulagi how’s it going?

    The answer is no.

    Adam was hiding and God had to search for him. Like hide and seek.

    Adam was afraid because he was naked. Adam could see himself from outside of himself. In other words self reflection was not part of the original composition of Adam since it wouldn’t be necessary. Why self reflect if you are already a holy and perfectly righteous being?

    Once sin entered Adam he died spiritually and lost all desire to know God, he became irretrievably lost.

    Lagi, think about this, the hyper Calvinist’ are not commenting on Adam hiding himself. Why? Let me know if you give up. So I can give you my observation about it. Thx


    Blessings
     
    #120 Sai, Dec 20, 2020
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