1689Dave
Well-Known Member
A Reborn unbeliever still has the fruit of the Spirit and is saved. But they believe the gospel when exposed to it. They are the lost sheep of Israel in every nation and religion.
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Altar Calls and Sinners Prayer
- Thread starter Salty
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
In a certain sense yes. God saved me before I ever heard the true gospel. But when I studied the gospel, it saved me from myself. But mainly it tells the saved about their salvation. How can saved infants believe the gospel?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
You can't "double down" on a simple error.
Go and read Psalm 126:6, own it and move on.
Definition of sheath
1 : a case for a blade (as of a knife)
2 : a structure in living tissue which closely envelops another. ... "the fatty sheath around nerve fibers"
3 : a protective covering around an electric cable.
Definition of sheaves
1 : a quantity of the stalks and ears of a cereal grass or sometimes other plant material bound together
One of them is a reference to:
John 4:34-38 [KJV]
34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. 35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and [then] cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. 36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. 37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. 38 I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.
34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. 35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and [then] cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. 36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. 37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. 38 I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.
Do you have a passage that describes a person being born of the Spirit, is saved, yet still rejects Christ (is an unbeliever)?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 1:3-12
Ephesians 2:1-3
With the change occurring at Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 2:4.
(Not that I particularly agree with his characterization of a "reborn unbeliever" awaiting the gospel.)
Charles Spurgeon, sermon of August 11, 1878:
"Would you have God the Holy Ghost witness to a falsehood? And yet it would be witnessing to a lie if he gave an inner witness of salvation to a man who is still an unbeliever, and who consequently is condemned already. If you refuse to believe God's word how can you think that the Spirit will bear witness of anything in you except it be to your condemnation? There must be faith going before, and then the witness will follow after."
"Would you have God the Holy Ghost witness to a falsehood? And yet it would be witnessing to a lie if he gave an inner witness of salvation to a man who is still an unbeliever, and who consequently is condemned already. If you refuse to believe God's word how can you think that the Spirit will bear witness of anything in you except it be to your condemnation? There must be faith going before, and then the witness will follow after."
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On the 'born-again before faith' contrivance:
Abraham Booth, Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners (1797):
"the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believes in Jesus Christ....To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other---Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine."
Charles Spurgeon, sermon of September 20, 1863:
"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is already saved! It is unnecessary and ridiculous for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved, when he is saved already, being regenerate!"
Abraham Booth, Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners (1797):
"the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believes in Jesus Christ....To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other---Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine."
Charles Spurgeon, sermon of September 20, 1863:
"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is already saved! It is unnecessary and ridiculous for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved, when he is saved already, being regenerate!"
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
“He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, Shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.” Psalm 126:6 (KJV 1900) So what is the correct interpretation of this? The gospel is for the elect and the regenerate elect throughout the world. Only they understand the gospel. The rest turn it into a system of works for the self-righteous to use as a means of saving themselves to no avail.
I partially do as well (perhaps even more than partially, when we break things down).
But none of those passages describe a born-again unbeliever.
That is the problem with breaking things down to these micro-doctrines. They rely not on Scripture but on men trying to work out what God never revealed. We are simply not qualified.
And it does not matter because it has nothing to do with sharing the Gospel, discipleship, or living the Christian life. These are things Scripture warns us about.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
No, but the born-again will always come to him when they hear the gospel.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Are we here straining out gnats while swallowing camels?
I suppose my main (only) concern is when people push Scripture to conform to their theology and form exaggerated doctrines. I am not saying this is you, but it can happen on both sides of the debate.
Excluding that, folks understand differently and there is room in the Kingdom for different views.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
No.
“We” are pointing out the difference between the English words “sheaves” (a bundle of grain tied together) and “sheaths” (knife cases) since both the Bible verse and the Hymn refer to Bringing in the “sheaves”.
It wasn’t a big deal, except you kept insisting that the word was sheaths.
That’s it.
There was no deeper point being made.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
[Eph 1:4 NKJV] 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
- Before the foundation of the world, were we saved or unsaved?
- Before the foundation of the world, had we heard the Gospel and responded already, or was that still a future event?
- Before the foundation of the world, were we already Chosen in Christ to be holy and blameless?
- Sinners or reprobate?
[Eph 1:5 NKJV] 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
- Predestined to adoption, but not yet adopted. Right?
- Sinners or reprobate?
[Eph 1:6 NKJV] 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
- Still the same sentence ... we were made accepted in the Beloved ... before we heard the Gospel. Right?
- Sinners or reprobate?
- Fast forward to avoid more line by line of the same thing.
- FINALLY, we hear the word of truth.
- FINALLY, we hear the gospel of our salvation.
- FINALLY, we believe.
- FINALLY, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
- Now we are born-again believer.
What were we from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD up until the event of verse 13?
Saved?
Unsaved?
Damned?
Predestined?
Chosen?
Dave says “born-again unbeliever”, and while I have some issues with his terminology ... we were something less than a born-again believer and something more than a reprobate sinner.
Since you have determined what those verses “do not define”, I ask you what those verses DO define?
Personally I believe God is more than our experience and understanding of Him. I do not think the point if Paul's words were to claim we are reborn prior to being saved, but to emphasize God's love for us, His plan for us, and His eternal redemptive purpose.
I ask again, is there even one verse that says a man is reborn while rejecting Christ. Rather in devolved to a discussion of predestination (I believe in predestination and "double predestination") I will reiterate that NO passage presents a born-again unbeliever. It is in our theologies, but it is not in the Bible.
To answer your question, I believe those passages demonstrate redemption in the lives of believers. The text allows for several interpretations - even free-will theology. I believe men are predestined to salvation or reprobation.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
I start with scripture then find the theology that comes the closest. But all theologies are seriously flawed I find.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Repent and Believe.
The instruction in Romans 10 is for evidence of Salvation after the soul is Saved.
The actually convicted sinner, by The Word of God and Holy Spirit, must be Given Repentance and faith, by God, also.
Salvation is an acquittal of the condition of being guilty of sin.
'Believing, mentally, or being told to 'believe', or repeat my 'prayer', without Conviction and Repentance is another Gospel.
It is as if The Garden of Eden is being offered and the innocent Created soul under probation is given a choice to 'believe' in The Tree of Life, like Adam.
The Created soul IS NOT INNOCENT.
Sin must be addressed.
The Judgement of God is Illustrated in Jesus' Crucifixion Stated in The Text. The soul will be Convicted of the sin that they are guilty of Hell, forever, and Repentance must take place and be and is implied in this Commandment, always, BEFORE SAVING TRUST = FAITH= BELIEF IS SPIRITUALLY POSSIBLE.
Those who have been deceived and are not Saved themselves will direct the lost to mentally 'believe' or 'come down' or 'pray', as if they are an accursed new gospel and leaves both in the most dreadful place of thinking they are children of God and sing "all is well with my soul".
That is why another gospel is said to be accursed.
If the statement leads to ASSURANCE OF SALVATION THEY HAVE RECEIVED FROM GOD IN THE NEW BIRTH, IT IS APPLICABLE TO THE PASSAGE.
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
"But what saith it?
The Word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart; that is, the word of faith, which we preach"
Romans 10:8
Dave G
Well-Known Member
IMO, neither are in the New Testament, and neither should have ever been adopted.
To me, "the altar" was the Old Testament place where animals were sacrificed as a picture of what the Lord Jesus would someday do for His sheep.
The "sinner's prayer" has gone from the heartfelt confession of Christ in a person ( Romans 10:8-10 ), to it now being used to "get saved".
Having grown up in IFB churches ( and visiting them as well as Evangelical Free churches ), that was the way that it was all treated...
That we came to the "altar" to do things or confess things that were important between the believer and the Lord ( yet He tells us in Matthew 6:6 to go to a "closet" to pray in secret ),
To "re-dedicate our lives to Christ"... can't find that one in the Scriptures, but I do see that God's children are bought and paid for by the blood of Christ, so they are already dedicated to Him,
To "get saved" ( apologies, I don't believe that people "get saved", but that they either are saved or not saved due to God's purposes according to election ),
To join the church ( again, I cannot find this practice in the New Testament ),
and many other things.
The "Sinner's Prayer" I consider to be something that is also not Biblical in the sense that many people think that God's decision to save someone happens at moment of belief, instead of before the foundation of the world ( Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4, 2 Timothy 1:9 and many others ).
Because of that, I was taught that to pray the "Sinner's Prayer" was, in effect, to "invite Christ to come into one's heart" ( I cannot find this concept anywhere in the New Testament ), and that it was only by that prayer of invitation, that God would step in and save someone.
To me, it's not only not biblical, but stems from looking at salvation as a cooperative act between men and God, and not an operative act of God on the rebellious hearts of His elect.
I see that the "order of salvation" is what leads to these two being used in the churches, and they have been in them a very long time now;
To the point that it has become traditional and accepted without most people really giving it much thought.
In other words, what a group believes about the Bible will be reflected in its practices,
and I've tried my best to show that what I believed from the age of 12 in 1978 to roughly 2003, were the reasons that I believe are behind these two practices.
I now disagree with their usage and I always will.
Based on what I see in the epistles, they were not in the early churches and I suspect that these practices came in over the centuries;
But they were never part of what the Lord gave His apostles to give to His churches.
there is no such person.This suggests a degree of confusion.
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