Re: Does Paul's conversion prove Calvinism's teaching on Irresistible Grace?

[Humble Disciple]

I believe you have not answered this;
Here is the apostate with a degree...did it help him?
John Shelby Spong Bio, Wife, Kids, Career, 12 Theses, Books and Quotes

HD, let me illustrate with a sports analogy; If Peyton Manning, John Elway, Dan Marino, Joe Namath , Joe Montana, and Tom Brady played football only at community college....would their ability have been different? would it be less?

The competition would not have been as talented, but would Joe Namath not have as quick a release? would Joe Montana not be as accurate? Would Dan Marino not throw a frozen rope?

You are hung up on a piece of paper that you claim is sub par, based on nothing.
Have you read any of Dr. Whites books?

I am not challenging James White's knowledge of the Bible and theology. I am questioning his honesty, by claiming a degree that he apparently didn't legitimately earn. It also suggests a lack of humility to claim the title of doctor without legitimately earning it.

 

[kyredneck]

Is it possible for a Calvinist to find Dr. Flowers to be a more likable person than James White? White seems to act pretty arrogantly for someone whose degree basically came from a diploma mill.

Egad! Is it possible for someone as arrogant as Donald Trump to have been the best president we've had in decades? What are you looking for? Touchy feely good stuff for truth? The truth can be very unsettling and disturbing, i.e. a wake up call.

 

[Humble Disciple]

Do you have a quote of DR.White saying they are all pelagian?
Leighton is a pelagian. He is a nice likable person leading people away from truth. You have never met either person but you determine this?
Catholics call DR. White.....the noted anti Catholic on Catholic radio stations nationwide. Why do you think that is?

Can you please explain in what way Dr. Flowers is Pelagian? I disagree with his soteriology, but I nonetheless feel that we should be careful using negative labels.

 

[Humble Disciple]

Egad! Is it possible for someone as arrogant as Donald Trump to have been the best president we've had in decades? What are you looking for? Touchy feely good stuff for truth? The truth can be very unsettling and disturbing, i.e. a wake up call.

Are you a Calvinist then? I thought you said you aren't a Calvinist.

 

[kyredneck]

Are you a Calvinist then? I thought you said you aren't a Calvinist.

I'm a Monergist that has much in common with Calvinists but not enough to be one.

Are you a Calvinist? 5. 4, 3, pointer?

 

[Iconoclast]

Can you please explain in what way Dr. Flowers is Pelagian? I disagree with his soteriology, but I nonetheless feel that we should be careful using negative labels.

look in the archives between 2011 and 2015

 

[Humble Disciple]

I am a Calvinist because, if left to my own free will, I would never be saved. The doctrines of unconditional election and irresistible grace are the basis for my assurance of salvation.

If Dr. Flowers has assurance of salvation without these doctrines, that's okay. I just don't like how he seems to misrepresent the teachings of Calvinism, and I doubt his objectivity.

An ex-Calvinist like Leighton Flowers might be as reliable of a witness as to what Calvinism actually teaches as Iraqi defectors who fooled America that Saddam had WMD's.

 

[Humble Disciple]

I'm a Monergist that has much in common with Calvinists but not enough to be one.

Are you a Calvinist? 5. 4, 3, pointer?

I am a four-point Calvinist. I don't reject limited atonement, but I am agnostic about it, especially since Calvin himself never appears to have actually taught it:

How Calvinistic was John Calvin? What did he teach concerning the extent of the atonement? Let us ponder his own words:

Isaiah 53:12- "I approve of the ordinary reading, that He alone bore the punishment of many, because on Him was laid the guilt of the whole world. It is evident from other passages, and especially from the fifth chapter of the Epistle to the Romans, that many sometimes denotes all."
Mark 14:24- "The word many does not mean a part of the world only, but the whole human race." In other words, Christ’s blood was shed for the whole human race.
Matthew 20:28- "‘Many’ is used, not for a definite number, but for a large number, in that He sets Himself over against all others. And this is its meaning also in Rom. 5:15, where Paul is not talking of a part of mankind but of the whole human race."
John 1:29- "And when he says the sin OF THE WORLD, He extends this favour indiscriminately to the whole human race....all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God and need to be reconciled to Him....Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by...faith."
John 3:16- "He has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers....He shows Himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when He invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ."
Romans 5:18- "He makes this favor common to all, because it is propoundable to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all (i.e. in the experience); for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God’s benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive Him."
2 Corinthians 5:19- God "shows Himself to be reconciled to the whole world" and Calvin goes on to say that the "whole world" means "all men without exception."
Galatians 5:12- "It is the will of God that we should seek the salvation of all men without exception, as Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world."
Colossians 1:15- "This redemption was procured by the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of His death all the sins of the world have been expiated."
Hebrews 5:9- "He (the writer of Hebrews) has inserted the universal term ‘to all’ to show that no one is excluded from this salvation who proves to be attentive and obedient to the Gospel of Christ."
Calvin even taught that the lost were purchased by Christ's blood: "It is no small matter to have the souls perish who were bought by the blood of Christ" (The Myster of Godliness, p. 83).
Skip's Lighthouse: CALVIN'S FAVORITE FLOWER WAS NOT A T.U.L.I.P.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am not challenging James White's knowledge of the Bible and theology. I am questioning his honesty, by claiming a degree that he apparently didn't legitimately earn. It also suggests a lack of humility to claim the title of doctor without legitimately earning it.

Did Shelby Spong earn his degree?
who are you to say it was not earned?
Who says anyone has to jump through your hoops to be declared a DR.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am a Calvinist because, if left to my own free will, I would never be saved. The doctrines of unconditional election and irresistible grace are the basis for my assurance of salvation.

If Dr. Flowers has assurance of salvation without these doctrines, that's okay. I just don't like how he seems to misrepresent the teachings of Calvinism, and I doubt his objectivity.

An ex-Calvinist like Leighton Flowers might be as reliable of a witness as to what Calvinism actually teaches as Iraqi defectors who fooled America that Saddam had WMD's.

He never was a Calvinist.
Those doctrines do not give assurance of salvation. They do teach salvation is certain.Leighton Flowers has error on virtually every podcast.

 

[Humble Disciple]

Those doctrines do not give assurance of salvation. They do teach salvation is certain.

How can one have certainty without assurance? And what do you mean that he was never a Calvinist in the first place?

 

[Humble Disciple]

Here's an honest question. If Dr. Flowers was deliberately lying about what the Bible teaches, in order to support his rejection of Calvinism, would that place his salvation in jeopardy?

 

[Iconoclast]

"Humble Disciple,

How can one have certainty without assurance?

What Jesus accomplished in His life and death was a perfect work, a covenant work as mediator and surety. It is fixed and certain.
If anyone is drawn by God to a saving belief they will eventually do this; seek scriptural assurance
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

And what do you mean that he was never a Calvinist in the first place?

I actually came to Baptistboard doing an online search for those who who oppose Calvinism. I search out the best arguments and teaching that go against what i believe, and try and see why we have seen the verses differently. My search turned up one of His posts, and i came here to interact with him, not knowing who he was.

Leighton rehearsed his story on here for years, developing all the phrases he uses in his podcasts, for example...response able, denying the scriptural teaching of the results of the fall.

He has a habit of zig zagging back and forth, taking a sentence out of context here, and another word over there, trying to show contradictions, many times with John Piper and others.
After he explains away the word the person uses, then he substitutes his own carnal philosophy in place of the mainstream teaching.

That being said, I cannot see his heart, he cannot see mine. I am not his judge.
That being said, I can read his posts.

If I went into some form of apostasy, and someone asked me a question about Calvinism, I would still be able to give basic mainstream answers on Calvinism in a way that all the cals would agree with 98%.
Leighton never did that. Unless he quoted a source, he always missed the mark. Thats what I mean and most every other Cal on here can tell you the same thing.
You can search it out in the archives. His podcasts deny biblical reality quite often.

I was first taught dispensational premillenial teaching, was told it was the truth, believed it for several years. I could teach and defend the teaching, if I brushed up, I could still make a solid presentation of the teaching, even though I no longer hold it. {John of Japan} is the most consistent and solid of the premill brothers on here. he might poke holes in my presentation, but most would agree
I believe believers holding that are still believers ,but have followed that system.

Early on I could not accurately articulate the other 3 views, because they told me they were heresy. It was not until I was challenged by a brother with a different view that i was forced to re-study.I recommend that people study an accurate understanding of each position now.

If Dr. Flowers was deliberately lying about what the Bible teaches, in order to support his rejection of Calvinism, would that place his salvation in jeopardy?[/QUOTE]

God is his judge, God knows the heart motivation. Most false teachers start out in and around churches then drift away.

 

[1689Dave]

Here's my take on Calvinism. Calvin probably taught Universal atonement. This is why points 4 & 5 don't line up with points 1, 2 & 3 in the Canons of Dort. 1, 2, & 3 are pure grace. Points 4 & 5 are works induced by grace. So I'm a points 1, 2, & 3 Calvinist. But replace points 4 & 5 with the New Birth being the means of salvation. And works follow being produced by the new nature.

 

[Humble Disciple]

Here's an honest question. If Dr. Flowers was deliberately lying about what the Bible teaches, in order to support his rejection of Calvinism, would that place his salvation in jeopardy?

Please keep in mind that I don't believe Dr. Flowers is deliberately lying. I just believe that, for whatever reason, he's become embittered toward Calvinism, thus compromising his objectivity.

 

[kyredneck]

embittered toward Calvinism

...several of those on board...

 

[Van]

Does Paul's conversion prove Calvinism's Irresistible Grace?
Nope, Irresistible grace is a fiction, a relic of the dark ages.

Humble member of the "several on this board..."

 

[Van]

Here is a partial quote from the old thread:

I know it's a hard pill for you to swallow --but it's the biblical truth. You don't have the power, ability, desire or wherewithal to do anything to bring yourself into the Kingdom of God. Salvation is all of God --not puny man.

Do we have the power to bring ourselves into the kingdom of God? Nope
Do we have the ability to bring ourselves into the kingdom of God? Nope
Do we have the "wherewithal" to bring ourselves into the kingdom of God? Nope

Do some have the desire to enter the kingdom of God? Yes indeed they do. Matthew 23:13.

God's word indicates our salvation does not "depend" on the man who wills or runs, it depends on God, the One who calls. But do not miss the point that God acknowledges some people will to enter the kingdom. (Romans 9:16) Thus point 1 of the TULIP should be rejected. Obviously point 1 of the TULIP, Total Spiritual Inability, is not of grace but of the Father of Lies. A Destructive Heresy.

 

[Humble Disciple]

I'm a points 1, 2, & 3 Calvinist.

I don't quite understand what you are saying. In what ways do you disagree with irresistible grace and preservation/perseverance of the saints?

 

[Humble Disciple]

Does Paul's conversion prove Calvinism's Irresistible Grace?
Nope, Irresistible grace is a fiction, a relic of the dark ages.

Humble member of the "several on this board..."

What does the doctrine of "irresistible grace" mean to you, and are you aware of the Biblical passages in favor of irresistible grace?

Also, how can God's purpose of predestining the elect come to pass without irresistible grace?