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God's Sovereignty Over Human Politics & Governments
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
KenH
Well-Known Member
To illustrate, it is clear that divine sovereignty and human freedom contradict each other. If God controls everything, including man's thoughts, then man is not free from God. If man is free from God in any sense or to any degree, then God does not control everything. Yet some theologians claim that the Bible teaches both divine sovereignty and human freedom, and so they insist that we must affirm both. However, since to affirm divine sovereignty is to deny human freedom, and to affirm human freedom is to deny divine sovereignty, then to affirm both only means to reject both divine sovereignty (in the form of an affirmation of human freedom) and human freedom (in the form of an affirmation of divine sovereignty). But to deny both means to affirm both in reverse order, and to affirm both means to deny both in reverse order again.
The necessary result is that the person who claims to believe both divine sovereignty and human freedom believes neither. In claiming to believe all of the Bible, he in fact believes none of it. In this example, since the Bible affirms divine sovereignty and denies human freedom, there is no contradiction – not even an apparent one. On the other hand, when non-Christians allege that the incarnation of Christ entails a contradiction, the Christian does not have the option to deny either the divinity or the humanity of Christ. Rather, he must formulate the doctrine as the Bible teaches it, and show that there is no contradiction. The same applies for the doctrine of the Trinity. In any case, if a person claims that he sees contradictions in the Bible, this means that he does not – he cannot – believe the Bible.
- Vincent Cheung, Systematic Theology
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
is this guy, Vincent Cheung, the ONLY theologian there is?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
what absolute RUBBISH!!!
so, when a person has thoughts to MURDER, RAPE, STEAL COMMIT ADULTERY, have an ABORTION, it is God who MAKES them do this very things thatr He Himself calls SIN???
As it is GOD Who CONTROLS our thoughts, it is GOD Who is the CAUSE of our SINS! Plain and simple!
WHY do people listen to these FOOLS who are supposed to be Christian "theologians"?
God has CHOSEN NOT to control EVERYTHING, because there is MUCH EVIL and WICKEDNESS in this world, which CANNNOT be from GOD!
The Bible says that the devil is the "god of this world" 2 Corinthians 4:4
stop read these really STUPID theological books!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
The God of the Bible has overall control of the entire universe, but "allows", according to His "permissive will", those things that take place, whether good or evil.
God is not the CAUSE of any evil or wickedness, which is from the devil himself, who is "the god of this world" (2 Cor. 4:4); and as John says in his First Epistle, "We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (5:19)
The theology of the Reformed/Calvinist, is grave error, that teaches, "God ordains everything that comes to pass" (Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter III - Of God's Eternal Decree), and yet say that God is not the author of sin! It is either ALL THINGS, or NOT ALL THINGS. Both cannot be right!
God is not the CAUSE of any evil or wickedness, which is from the devil himself, who is "the god of this world" (2 Cor. 4:4); and as John says in his First Epistle, "We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (5:19)
The theology of the Reformed/Calvinist, is grave error, that teaches, "God ordains everything that comes to pass" (Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter III - Of God's Eternal Decree), and yet say that God is not the author of sin! It is either ALL THINGS, or NOT ALL THINGS. Both cannot be right!
KenH
Well-Known Member
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Exodus 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Daniel 4:35 and all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
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KenH
Well-Known Member
I reject any philosophy that smacks of Deism.
I reject any philosophy that teaches that any part of the universe or life are random series of events outside of God's absolute and total control.
I reject any philosophy that teaches Satan is an opposite and almost equal force to God, that God is only able to defeat because God happens to be bigger and stronger. God created Satan. Satan is not self-existent. Satan is not eternal. Satan is not omniscient. Satan is no omnipresent. Satan is not omnipotent. Satan is absolutely and totally under the sovereignty of God. Satan might deny this, just as free-willers do among humans who think that they can act independently of God. Both Satan and free-willers are badly mistaken.
When God delivered the nation of Israel out of slavery and brought them to Mt Sinai, he established a covenant with them where Israel went from being under Pharaoh to being under YHWH. This was a foreshadowing of what Paul tells us about ourselves. We were once slaves to sin (Satan), but now we are slaves to righteousness (YHWH).
As I have stated before, nothing can happen without God's awareness and allowance. Certainly God allows us to choose within the parameters of his will. For instance, I recently heard of a brother whom I knew well in my youth who had preached and lead a church well for 3 decades, who fell in sin. He had to resign and his marriage and family has been rocked to the core. Did God cause this sin? No, of course not. Was God fully aware of everything being done and the fallout while He allowed Satan to sift this pastor? Absolutely. This tragedy has a sovereign purpose even while being a work from the pit of hell.
Balaam is a good example of a man where God set boundaries as to what Balaam could do. God is fully Sovereign and Supreme over all creation. Not one molecule goes rogue. This sovereignty works perfectly in its allowance of men to wander in the confines of God's will. (Think of a big flock of sheep wandering the wilderness from Egypt to the Promised Land. While it seems that the sheep wander, the Great Shepherd is directing the sheep's path.)
As I have stated before, nothing can happen without God's awareness and allowance. Certainly God allows us to choose within the parameters of his will. For instance, I recently heard of a brother whom I knew well in my youth who had preached and lead a church well for 3 decades, who fell in sin. He had to resign and his marriage and family has been rocked to the core. Did God cause this sin? No, of course not. Was God fully aware of everything being done and the fallout while He allowed Satan to sift this pastor? Absolutely. This tragedy has a sovereign purpose even while being a work from the pit of hell.
Balaam is a good example of a man where God set boundaries as to what Balaam could do. God is fully Sovereign and Supreme over all creation. Not one molecule goes rogue. This sovereignty works perfectly in its allowance of men to wander in the confines of God's will. (Think of a big flock of sheep wandering the wilderness from Egypt to the Promised Land. While it seems that the sheep wander, the Great Shepherd is directing the sheep's path.)
KenH
Well-Known Member
God has one will. God is not schizophrenic.
KenH
Well-Known Member
I reject any philosophy that thinks that God is just ringing His hands and saying, "If only I could convince someone to serve me and fulfill my purposes. Mankind is so far off from what I intended. I could fix the whole problem if My creatures would only let Me."
Anyone who thinks that God is subservient to the His creatures in any way is describing a god of his own vain imagination.
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Then God is the AUTHOR of sin!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Isaiah 45.7 the Hebrew does not mean "evil", but "disaster, calamity"
KenH
Well-Known Member
God said that He creates evil. Are you accusing God of having lied?
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
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KenH
Well-Known Member
Disaster and calamity are evils. Do you think such things are good?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
When from God it cannot be evil but JUSTICE
KenH
Well-Known Member
You remind me of the people Stephen gave a speech to and their reaction - we don't like what you are saying and we want you to stop.
Acts 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears
KenH
Well-Known Member
1) Which would not change the character of the events. They are still evil.
2) Disasters and calamities befall God's elect. Those are certainly not justice as God's elect have already been justified in Christ. Are you saying that disasters and calamities can just randomly happen to God's elect?
KenH
Well-Known Member
"There is no attribute of God more comforting to his children than the doctrine of Divine Sovereignty. Under the most adverse circumstances, in the most severe troubles, they believe that Sovereignty hath ordained their afflictions, that Sovereignty overrules them, and that Sovereignty will sanctify them all. There is nothing for which the children of God ought more earnestly to contend than the dominion of their Master over all creation—the kingship of God over all the works of his own hands—the throne of God, and his right to sit upon that throne. On the other hand, there is no doctrine more hated by worldlings, no truth of which they have made such a foot-ball, as the great, stupendous, but yet most certain doctrine of the Sovereignty of the infinite Jehovah. Men will allow God to be everywhere except on his throne. They will allow him to be in his workshop to fashion worlds and to make stars. They will allow him to be in his almonry to dispense his alms and bestow his bounties. They will allow him to sustain the earth and bear up the pillars thereof, or light the lamps of heaven, or rule the waves of the ever-moving ocean; but when God ascends his throne, his creatures then gnash their teeth; and when we proclaim an enthroned God, and his right to do as he wills with his own, to dispose of his creatures as he thinks well, without consulting them in the matter, then it is that we are hissed and execrated, and then it is that men turn a deaf ear to us, for God on his throne is not the God they love. They love him anywhere better than they do when he sits with his sceptre in his hand and his crown upon his head. But it is God upon the throne that we love to preach. It is God upon his throne whom we trust."
- from Charles Spurgeon's sermon, "Divine Sovereignty", delivered at New Park Street Chapel, Southwark, on May 4, 1956.
Except you post sets up a false dichotomy. Who argues that anyone is free from God? I know of no one. The false don’t dichotomy is the idea that God controls every minute thing or He is not sovereign. Either God is completely deterministic or man is free from God. That thinking is faulty and not found in scripture