Calvanism Disproven

[canadyjd]

It is a damnable lie to offer what is not really offered.

So, when God commands Christians to proclaim the gospel to everyone, already knowing the overwhelming majority will reject the gospel, He is commanding Christians to proclaim a “damnable lie”? Really?

The only alternative is to claim God does not know who will believe. God is not omniscient in this view. That belief is a damnable lie.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

If you had read Calvin's Institutes then you would know he said that if his theology were taken too far it would lead to trouble. I don't find that in agreement with the Bible. At the time he was alive I doubt he knew about the form of an epistle and how to correctly it according to its literary context. I am confident he know little or nothing about the difference between a Greek and Hebrew culture and therefor knew how to interpret a text in light of its historical and literary context.

Calvin was not ignorant of biblical culture. He observed what was in the biblical text and wrote his observations of the text. Whether you agree with his observations is the question. However, to imply that Calvin didn't stick with the scriptures in his observations would be false.

 

[Revmitchell]

So, when God commands Christians to proclaim the gospel to everyone, already knowing the overwhelming majority will reject the gospel, He is commanding Christians to proclaim a “damnable lie”? Really?

The only alternative is to claim God does not know who will believe. God is not omniscient in this view. That belief is a damnable lie.

peace to you

No its not the only alternative. You left out your own doctrine that says that God does not make those alive to be able to receive the gospel. That is not the same thing as can receive the gospel but refuses to.

 

[Reformed1689]

You insulted me. And you don't think you should repent?

If you were insulted that is your problem, not mine. No repentance necessary. I spoke a fact, you didn't like it. Not my problem.

 

[37818]

Hypothetically, a King was holding a great feast and invited everyone ... but everyone refused to come (For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed). Therefore, the King personally persuaded some to come (No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.) and changed, not their minds, but their hearts (Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ... Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what are we to do?” ... A woman named Lydia was listening; she was a seller of purple fabrics from the city of Thyatira, and a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.)

Does not answer my objection.

 

[Reformed1689]

No its not the only alternative. You left out your own doctrine that says that God does not make those alive to be able to receive the gospel. That is not the same thing as can receive the gospel but refuses to.

I don't agree with that assessment. They don't want the Gospel. They reject the Gospel because they are spiritually dead. That is still an active rejection.

 

[37818]

So, when God commands Christians to proclaim the gospel to everyone, already knowing the overwhelming majority will reject the gospel, He is commanding Christians to proclaim a “damnable lie”? Really?

No. God genuinely offers the gift to all.

The only alternative is to claim God does not know who will believe. God is not omniscient in this view. That belief is a damnable lie.

Not at all. God genuinely offers the gift to all.

 

[37818]

How so?
God chooses whom He wills with us not doing anything to earn it.
Tell me how that is conditional.

Matthew 22:2-14, ". . . The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen. . . ."

The wedding garment was a required condion to have been met. Receiving salvation as a gift is a required condition.

 

[Reformed1689]

Not at all. God genuinely offers the gift to all.

Is it truly offered to all though? Is that what the Bible says? Only those granted by the Father can come.

 

[AustinC]

Is it truly offered to all though? Is that what the Bible says? Only those granted by the Father can come.

@37818 The problem here is you insist that it is an offer. No, it's not. God doesn't put salvation on snack plate and say "would you like some."
God doesn't tell us to "offer" salvation. God tells us to make deciples and tell them to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. If they believe, it is because God chose to call them himself unto salvation. If they don't believe, it is because God has left them in their corruption of sin.
We don't "offer" anything. That term is a man-centered term that puts the choice of salvation onto the human and emasculates the Spirit of God from doing the work.

 

[Reformed1689]

The problem here is you insist that it is an offer. No, it's not. God doesn't put salvation on snack plate and say "would you like some."
God doesn't tell us to "offer" salvation. God tells us to make deciples and tell them to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. If they believe, it is because God chose to call them himself unto salvation. If they don't believe, it is because God has left them in their corruption of sin.
We don't "offer" anything. That term is a man-centered term that puts the choice of salvation onto the human and emasculates the Spirit of God from doing the work.

Did you mean to direct that to me? You should know by now I don't think it is an offer. God actually chose to save specific individuals.

 

[AustinC]

Matthew 22:2-14, ". . . The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen. . . ."

The wedding garment was a required condion to have been met. Receiving salvation as a gift is a required condition.

Do you understand this parable?

Jesus went to the chosen nation of Israel and called them to repentance. They did not come. Jesus brought in and chose others to be his guests. They came and he gave them official wedding garments. The man without the wedding garments is the person who thought he could gain the wedding by his own efforts rather than be chosen to come. Because he tried to get in on his own, he never received the wedding garments. The ruler quickly recognized that this was an uninvited guest and he tossed him out.

Moral of the story: Only those whom the master chooses will be at the wedding feast. All others are cast away into darkness.

 

[AustinC]

Did you mean to direct that to me? You should know by now I don't think it is an offer. God actually chose to save specific individuals.

I understand. I didn't see the person you were quoting so I quoted your comment and expressed how the idea of "offering" salvation is a man-centered, non-biblical means of presenting salvation. I know you do not hold that view.

 

[37818]

Is it truly offered to all though? Is that what the Bible says? Only those granted by the Father can come.

And that means doing the Father's will. Matthew 7:21, ". . . but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. . . ." Since it cannot be merited, Romans 4:1-5. Hebrews 9:5. Not a work, Romans 11:6.

 

[canadyjd]

No its not the only alternative. You left out your own doctrine that says that God does not make those alive to be able to receive the gospel. That is not the same thing as can receive the gospel but refuses to.

I don’t see the distinction. The accusation is that the gospel is not a genuine offer of salvation to all if God elects those that will be saved and brings them and only them to salvation by power of Holy Spirit.

If you believe this, then how can the gospel be a genuine offer of salvation to all if God already knows those who reject the gospel? That rejection is as certain as the elect being saved, since God has seen it and knows it.

peace to you

 

[37818]

Do you understand this parable?

Jesus went to the chosen nation of Israel and called them to repentance. They did not come. Jesus brought in and chose others to be his guests. They came and he gave them official wedding garments. The man without the wedding garments is the person who thought he could gain the wedding by his own efforts rather than be chosen to come. Because he tried to get in on his own, he never received the wedding garments. The ruler quickly recognized that this was an uninvited guest and he tossed him out.

Moral of the story: Only those whom the master chooses will be at the wedding feast. All others are cast away into darkness.

Better than you suppose.
Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7-8. 1 John 5:1, 1 John 5:4-5. 1 John 5:9-13.

 

[canadyjd]

It is a damnable lie to offer what is not really offered.

God offered salvation to all who kept the OT Law. That was a genuine offer which Jesus repeated to the rich young noble.

God knew no one would keep the law. Not even one person. Was God lying? Of course not.

Scripture says all who believe the gospel will be saved and the gospel should be spread throughout the world. The offer is genuine, even if people are unable to receive it. All reject God’s offer, just as they rejected keeping OT law.

That God has chosen some for salvation and brought it about in His power is a testament to His mercy.

Peace to you

 

[AustinC]

Better than you suppose.
Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7-8. 1 John 5:1, 1 John 5:4-5. 1 John 5:9-13.

Explain each of your verses. Anyone can give verses as prooftext, out of context. Don't be lazy. Explain your point.

 

[Revmitchell]

I don’t see the distinction. The accusation is that the gospel is not a genuine offer of salvation to all if God elects those that will be saved and brings them and only them to salvation by power of Holy Spirit.

If you believe this, then how can the gospel be a genuine offer of salvation to all if God already knows those who reject the gospel? That rejection is as certain as the elect being saved, since God has seen it and knows it.

peace to you

Not sure how to better communicate the distinction. Him knowing who will reject it and Him electing those to not be saved are not the same thing. Not sure how that clear distinction is not understood.

 

[Revmitchell]

I don't agree with that assessment. They don't want the Gospel. They reject the Gospel because they are spiritually dead. That is still an active rejection.

They reject it because they have not been made alive (according to your doctrine) and they do not have the ability because God refused to make them alive. Therefore the offer is not genuine.