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Calvanism Disproven

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Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Revmitchell said:
Not sure how to better communicate the distinction. Him knowing who will reject it and Him electing those to not be saved are not the same thing. Not sure how that clear distinction is not understood.
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I don't have a problem with this. God decides to save some, he also decides not to save others. What is the problem? Where does the Bible say that this offer of salvation is freely given to every individual? And I mean with also considering verses saying that it has to be granted by the Father. If it has to be granted that means there must necessarily be some that do not have that granted.
 
canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Revmitchell said:
They reject it because they have not been made alive (according to your doctrine)…..
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No, all have rejected the offer already because they are enslaved to sin and hate God. God didn’t do that. They volunteered with their own corrupted human will to be in that conduction.

Please don’t change the display of God’s mercy in choosing some for salvation into some sort of hateful action on God’s part in passing over all others.

peace to you
 
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AustinC

Well-Known Member
Revmitchell said:
They reject it because they have not been made alive (according to your doctrine) and they do not have the ability because God refused to make them alive. Therefore the offer is not genuine.
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Are those who are dead in trespasses and sins also alive (according to your doctrine)? I am unsure what problem you might have with Ephesians 2:4-5.
 
R

Revmitchell

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AustinC said:
Are those who are dead in trespasses and sins also alive (according to your doctrine)? I am unsure what problem you might have with Ephesians 2:4-5.
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I never said I had a problem with it. In fact I don't. It may be that I have issues with the reformed interpretation of it.
 
R

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
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canadyjd said:
No, all have rejected the offer already because they are enslaved to sin and hate God. God didn’t do that. They volunteered with their own corrupted human will to be in that conduction.

Please don’t change the display of God’s mercy in choosing some for salvation into some sort of hateful action on God’s part in passing over all others.

peace to you
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I never characterized it that way. please don't read in to my words. However, your doctrine says that 1. man must first be made alive prior to being able to believe, 2. God has to do a secondary work of grace apart from the gospel in order to do that, 3. Those who He does not perform that secondary work of grace apart from the gospel will not be able to believe, 4. God offers salvation to them even though He does not enable them to believe, 5. Therefore it is a serious flaw in theology when we say that God refuses to enable us to believe, then offers salvation to us, and then holds us accountable for not believing after God refused to enable us to believe. Not sure why that is not obvious.
 
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Revmitchell

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AustinC said:
So those who are dead in their trespasses and sins are dead, until God makes them alive? Is that correct?
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See this is where conversations between us falls apart. We use the same words but different definitions. You hold to us as being dead like lasers. Scripture says we are dead like the prodigal. Therefore you have asked a question that is unanswerable.
 
canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Revmitchell said:
I never characterized it that way. please don't read in to my words. However, your doctrine says that 1. man must first be made alive prior to being able to believe, 2. God has to do a secondary work of grace apart from the gospel in order to do that, 3. Those who He does not perform that secondary work of grace apart from the gospel will not be able to believe, 4. God offers salvation to them even though He does not enable them to believe, 5. Therefore it is a serious flaw in theology when we say that God refuses to enable us to believe, then offers salvation to us, and then holds us accountable for not believing after God refused to enable us to believe. Not sure why that is not obvious.
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Well, I don’t consider God Holy Spirit enabling someone to believe to be a “secondary work of grace to the gospel”.

Please explain how this view is different from God offering salvation to the Hebrews through keeping the OT Law, knowing not a single person would be saved by keeping the commandments? God did not enable them to keep the commandments, and Jesus even repeated the offer to to the rich young noble seeking the kingdom of heaven.

God still held the Hebrew people accountable for not keeping the Law, knowing they were unable.

peace to you
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
canadyjd said:
Just because you say it doesn’t make it true.

And, you agsin don’t have an answer to the question.

peace to you
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You had asked no question.

canadyjd said:
God offered salvation to all who kept the OT Law. That was a genuine offer which Jesus repeated to the rich young noble.

God knew no one would keep the law. Not even one person. Was God lying? Of course not.

Scripture says all who believe the gospel will be saved and the gospel should be spread throughout the world. The offer is genuine, even if people are unable to receive it. All reject God’s offer, just as they rejected keeping OT law.

That God has chosen some for salvation and brought it about in His power is a testament to His mercy.
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A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Revmitchell said:
See this is where conversations between us falls apart. We use the same words but different definitions. You hold to us as being dead like lasers. Scripture says we are dead like the prodigal. Therefore you have asked a question that is unanswerable.
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The prodigal wasn't dead. Nowhere does it indicate the prodigal was dead. The prodigal was a son. He was already in the family. He was never considered dead.

Read the text in Ephesians 2:1-5 and note that whatever definition you are attempting to have is not supported in the passage.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
 
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AustinC

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
No.
Your problem is you did not understand my argument.
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So far, you have no argument to understand. You cherrypicked a few verses and never explained why and you failed to explain the parable. I explained it to you and you haven't stated anything in response.
 
Alan Gross

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
robycop3 said:
2 Peter 3:9 shows calvinism false-The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

And if that aint enough, there's Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

So, to let Him in, one must ACT-getting up & opening the door. Very few times has He ever forced Himself in on anyone as He did Moses, Jeremiah, ot Paul.
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robycop3 said:
2 Peter 3:9 shows calvinism false-The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
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Your text says, "toward us".

That is Saved people it is referring to.

robycop3 said:
And if that aint enough, there's Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
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This text, also, is to Saved people congregating as a church body.

If they open the door, He will come in and dine with them (Saved folks).

No reference to anyone "lost" in these two verses.
 
Alan Gross

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
Revmitchell said:
They reject it because they have not been made alive (according to your doctrine) and they do not have the ability because God refused to make them alive. Therefore the offer is not genuine.
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The Command is to Repent and Believe the Gospel.

And to bring forth fruit meet for repentance.

Or, die in their sins, where all human beings are found, as lawbreakers, dead in trespasses and sins.

You has He "QUICKENED" who were dead.

There is no, "offer" of a "gift".

There is a COMMAND to REPENT.

If one understands that it is God Who QUICKENS and MAKES ALIVE a Spiritually dead
soul, with The Adamic Nature, then, AND ONLY THEN, can they Spiritually discern How God Saves a soul, ACCORDING to ALL SCRIPTURES in The BIBLE and NOT how a Spiritually dead sinner QUICKENS THEMSELVES from THE DEAD.

That has never taken place in the history of mankind.

That is another Gospel that instructs lost souls to remain in their sins.

"Here is the "offer" of a "gift" to "not go to hell", do you want it?

Yes, but the lost individual is still lost and deceived by a false preacher to "belief" a false gospel, NOT FOUND in Scripture.

Jesus is the Savior and Deserves to be WORSHIPPED SO, and is, by some.
 
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